Paypal - 180 day Disputes Now ??

[stompyq]

Does anyone know how the amazon selling experience works? How are you actually paid? I think I'am going to avoid using paypal as a form of payment from sales, for the foreseeable future (if that's possible)

 

[David Murphy]

The only really safe method for a seller is US Postal Money Orders.

The only really safe method for a buyer is PayPal or Credit Card.

This is the dilemma. There is no solution, except cash in person, but then you can be robbed at gunpoint.

Western Union payment is 100% safe for sellers. I've used it before on overseas sales (but not too often). PayPal has tried to trash this payment method as much as they can as it once had the potential to compete with them. Part of PayPal's gig is to fear monger about other payment methods, while simultaneously offering themselves up as the savior of secure payment - sort of a protection racket.

 

[David Murphy]

By the way for those distinguishing between PayPal and eBay, remember that eBay owns PayPal. They are not separate companies despite the convenient illusion they try to create that this is the case.

These days I sell very few valuable items on eBay because their total fees are exorbitant and the risk of fraud is significant on expensive items. I encounter perhaps a 2-3% per item fraud rate of buyer claims for which I just refund the money because I know there's no choice. I am also occasionally forced to return money on absolutely new photographic items, simply because the buyers can't understand how to use them out of their own ignorance (and they often even admit this).

There are a class of buyers on eBay who now know and exploit their "buyer protection" to get free stuff. I had one buyer from Thailand for instance, actually warn me about some of his friends who engage in this (I no longer ship there due to multiple fraud related losses). I know of other shady buyers here in the US too. I'm not sure how long they are able to get away with this, but they are certainly out there.

A fraud rate of 2-3% is sustainable for items that are worth only a few dollars, but crushing for anything expensive, say an expensive camera body or lens.

 

[enasniearth]

Western Union payment is 100% safe for sellers. I've used it before on overseas sales (but not too often). PayPal has tried to trash this payment method as much as they can as it once had the potential to compete with them. Part of PayPal's gig is to fear monger about other payment methods, while simultaneously offering themselves up as the savior of secure payment - sort of a protection racket.

Many years ago before Paypal
Sellers received postal money orders which do in fact have
Some buyer protection .
I received overseas western union payments ,
Cash in an envelope wrapped and taped on several occasions .
Bid pay was an online service where the buyer went online and used a charge card and you were sent a western union money order .
I had a lot more overseas sales , buyers would send money western union
And in return request a lower value on paperwork which is not possible now .

To rule through fear and intimidation , sure there were some bad sellers ,
I received a camera with a sleepy shutter , the seller refused to take it back
And used the threat of ' if you leave me a negative feedback I will neg you into hell '

The result of all these protections is that there is not many interesting items
For sale , the small person does not want to sell the family camera online overseas , the result is the same crappy items listed over and over .

 

[NY_Dan]

eBay 10 percent, PayPal about 3 percent. Sell a camera for 2,000 -- eBay gets $200!!! PayPal about $60. Seller $1740. On top of this subtract another 13 percent of shipping cost -- so often a seller will loose money on shipping.

Next ship to buyer. Hopefully the buyer isn't buying for someone in Asia or elsewhere. Because if they are, they will repack item in smaller, flimsy box with less packing materials and no insurance. Just one scenario.

Another scenario is buyer will get item, and ask for a partial refund -- they know the seller has spent $35 shipping with insurance and they can send it back cheaper without insurance, and that if they return seller will have a huge hassle and have to re-list. Seller will also hope the item arrives undamaged. Usually seller will agree to partial refund -- what else can they do? Also, I think eBay has a new policy which lets them award partial refunds at seller's expense.

Another problem is waiting for buyers to leave feedback. Many never do, or wait so that even if they're happy with purchase, they don't want to leave positive feedback, because if they do, then they can't dispute (I think).

eBay has the greatest business model -- for eBay.

If a seller hits the easy re-list on selling page, eBay automatically selects the best offer box -- this can be unselected.

Oh well. We can't turn back the clock to when the fees were lower, the payment options better, and when there weren't shipping percentages. And now, a huge number of buyers use services that bid in last 4 seconds as a way to prevent bidding wars. Therefore, sellers have to use buy-it-nows or risk getting screwed. Some buyers make more than one bid to discourage other buyers. What eBay really is pushing hard for is to make sellers sell internationally whether they want to or not and ship to a centralized shipper who will then ship out of country. Ugh.

 

[Jack Conrad]

OR this is part of the ebay master plan to weed out individual sellers and slowly transition to catering only to only high-volume sellers with online storefronts who can sustain these types of practices. At least, that's what this trend in ebay's policy changes is beginning to show. If that were true, the question of whether or not it's a smart change in policy is fodder for a different discussion.

Predatory capitalism. Big fish eating little fish.

 

[sleepyhead]

This, and other changes over the years, makes me sell fewer items on EBay than in the old days

 

[Mackinaw]

......When I started to collect cameras there was a system in place to do it easily -- large camera shows, and collecting societies like the Nikon Historical Society. We had conventions and attended shows. No one needed eBay, and when we used it, we unloaded our junk there. We depended on dealers we had met in person at shows, when they advertised in Shutterbug Ads........

I remember these large camera shows well. SE Michigan (Detroit area) was a hot bed for camera shows back in the 1980's. A chap named Sam Vinegar (Photorama) would set up several shows a year that would fill a large auditorium. Sellers/buyers from all over the U.S. and Canada would attend these events, and you could buy or sell anything. What I liked the best is that you could thoroughly check out equipment before buying. And haggling with the seller to get the best price was always a challenge (and fun). Too bad eBay killed them.

Jim B

 

[Corran]

eBay 10 percent, PayPal about 3 percent. Sell a camera for 2,000 -- eBay gets $200!!! PayPal about $60. Seller $1740. On top of this subtract another 13 percent of shipping cost -- so often a seller will loose money on shipping.

Next ship to buyer. Hopefully the buyer isn't buying for someone in Asia or elsewhere. Because if they are, they will repack item in smaller, flimsy box with less packing materials and no insurance. Just one scenario.

Another scenario is buyer will get item, and ask for a partial refund -- they know the seller has spent $35 shipping with insurance and they can send it back cheaper without insurance, and that if they return seller will have a huge hassle and have to re-list. Seller will also hope the item arrives undamaged. Usually seller will agree to partial refund -- what else can they do? Also, I think eBay has a new policy which lets them award partial refunds at seller's expense.

I've actually sold multiple items to the dealers who ship overseas. I never had a problem, and in fact they usually bought things straight away without haggling a bit with BIN (I'm usually willing to consider offers).

I did have an overseas buyer once insist on a partial refund due to "fungus" in a lens. I said he was lying, and he wouldn't provide a picture of the problem. When he threatened a dispute, I removed all money from my Paypal account, took off the bank accounts / credit cards, and shut it down. When he did do a dispute, I fought it, but ultimately Paypal forced a refund, but I had no account anymore! So for months I had Paypal creditors calling me as my account had gone negative. However, I got the last laugh - when I finally did get the items back, the box was completely crushed and the item damaged. I filed a claim and Paypal eventually took back some of his money to pay for repairs. I didn't bother to repair it, but sold it as-is on eBay, and at the end of the day actually made more money that way than the other sale. 😱

 

[Lss]

As a buyer, the policies are protective. As a seller, you take your statistical chances. OK for a regular seller, but tough for a one-time seller or seller with an expensive item.

Quite so. EBay tries to maximize the number and value of transactions. Being a safe place for buyers and at least workable for large sellers is a pretty good way forward. In the long term, I think this will improve eBay's reputation.

Of course, I have now zero interest selling through them with the risks involved. Similarly, many of the small sellers I have bought from in the past will likely move away (or they already have). EBay was a great place for buying camera gear for a few years' period.

 

[Corran]

That works until you go for a home loan, and the officer says, we were going to offer you 30 years at 4% but there is this dispute from paypal you never took care of.

You have to make sure it is gone.

Let me clarify.
They were calling me of their own accord. There was never anything on my actual credit reports, ever. I have like an 800 credit score...

In fact, I am not sure they can actually legally do that. "He owes us money we took away from him in the first place" doesn't sound tenable. But, I'm not an expert, it just seems that way to me due to the way they handled it - and I actually got pretty testy with one of their guys on the phone and he wouldn't answer my direct questions about whether or not they could actually put it on my credit report, so I think they can't.

 

[ray*j*gun]

I agree.... as a seller (ebay/paypal) its risky and expensive.....you can't even put in neg feedback on the system if your the seller. I have had good luck selling there in the few cases that i posted but I now know I was lucky..... and we all know what happens to luck if you play the game long enough!

 

[CameraQuest]

Regardless of the payment method, if a buyer intends to cheat the seller,
there are so many BUYER PROTECTION clauses of various kinds that dishonest buyers have a good chance of succeeding.

The basic problem with Ebay and Paypal these days is that practically all the safeguards and protections favor the buyer, putting the seller in defensive mode from the git go.

--for some making ebay / paypal a good place to buy, but a bad place to sell for the small seller.


It comes down to trust between buyer and seller. Thanks to ebay and paypal management, sellers don't have have all that much to trust in - by design.

Just because you are paranoid does not mean they are not out to get you.


Stephen

 

[Corran]

That's true. And any transaction requires a degree of trust.

I wonder what percentage of eBay/Paypal transactions go smoothly and without incident? I bet it's well within the 95% range.

 

[lewis44]

I sold a Pentax MX & 50mm f1.4 Lens to someone with an address in Oregon.
Come to find out it was a freight Forwarder and was sent to China. Somewhere along the way it was damaged and the buyer filed a complaint with Paypal and left negative feedback.
The 1st I heard of it was when Paypal notified me. The buyer never contacted me directly.
The buyer won the complaint, how I don't know. They took the money out of my account and I ended up spending a long time on the phone with both Paypal and ebay.
In the end the buyer never sent the camera back and Paypal gave the money back to me, but would not remove the negative feedback.
I Contacted ebay and they basically told me tough ****.
It was the only negative I have received in over 10 years and am still pissed about it.
See me on Amazon in the future.

 

[Ranchu]

Regardless of the payment method, if a buyer intends to cheat the seller,
there are so many BUYER PROTECTION clauses of various kinds that dishonest buyers have a good chance of succeeding.

The basic problem with Ebay and Paypal these days is that practically all the safeguards and protections favor the buyer, putting the seller in defensive mode from the git go.

--for some making ebay / paypal a good place to buy, but a bad place to sell for the small seller.


It comes down to trust between buyer and seller. Thanks to ebay and paypal management, sellers don't have have all that much to trust in - by design.

Just because you are paranoid does not mean they are not out to get you.


Stephen

There's nothing wrong with all that protection for buyers, in my experience half the sellers do not mention serious issues with cameras, whether they have another 50 cameras for sale or 50 dishes. I actually think my hit rate is better with people who know nothing about cameras. Is anyone else's experience any different? That's the sellers fault, and they need to be kept in line. I made an honest mistake myself once, but look at most of the ads, they're full of generalizations and evasions. These sellers are trying to sell things for more than their true value by lying and omitting, at buyer's expense.

Why would I trust them?

 

[Ranchu]

Right, but there's all this talk about buyers having too much protection. Without those protections, half the sellers will simply lie one way or another about function or condition, then sanctimoniously stick me with the POS and keep the money. My money, btw.

 

[Mark C]

Right, but there's all this talk about buyers having too much protection. Without those protections, half the sellers will simply lie one way or another about function or condition, then sanctimoniously stick me with the POS and keep the money. My money, btw.

And there's the dilemma. That was very much the way eBay operated in the old days. I got screwed more than once by nasty sellers who lied about their gear, and were willing to lie and have accomplices lie during a dispute.

Now they've gone so far the other way that I sellers are almost totally at risk. As a buyer I'm very happy, and do a lot more business there now. I do wish I had a safe selling outlet though.

 

[Ranchu]

And I want to make clear, I'm talking about sellers who describe a slr finder as clean and clear when it's full of internal dust. I can open the top, take apart all the optics, not bend the meter needle, and clean everything and put it back together. But that's not what I signed up for, it's a pain in the ass, I was simply mislead about the condition so I would buy it. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.

 

[daveleo]

I think that 14 days from receiving the merchandise (as shown on the shipper's record) is as long as a no-questions-asked buyer protection plan should last.
If the buyer can't check it out in 14 days, don't buy it.

actually, now that I am all worked up on this again . . . the seller should state that in the product description. "You have 14 days from delivery to ask for a refund". Bold type. That constraint is part of that specific sales agreement.

Not that it means a lot to me personally. I am just pissedoff about this.