DougK
This space left blank
I'm not familiar with that test (at least by that name). Our rifle qualification was done against pop-up man-sized torso targets at ranges from 50m - 300m, although for competitive smallbore rifle I punched a ridiculous number of holes into traditional 25m bullseye targets as well.Roger Hicks said:
Flinor
Well-known
Anyone who has ever advanced the film on a Leica M3 and then cocked the hammer on a Colt Python will understand the similarity of precision products designed and engineered for a single purpose.
Modern and... not so modern!
Vektor CP1 (South Africa) and Bergmann-Bayard (Danish production)
Vektor CP1 (South Africa) and Bergmann-Bayard (Danish production)
P
Peter
Guest
Doug said:
Hi Doug, you have a Bergmann-Bayard in your collection!
FrankS
Registered User
For me it is the appreciation of fine mechanical design and engineering.
agfa100
Well-known
I just punch paper, 10 meter air pistol & a Benelli MP-95e with a custom Nill grip, keeps me out of trouble.
Hi Peter -- Yes, you are familiar with it? The Belgians licensed the design from a German company and sold a bunch of them mostly to the militaries of Spain and Denmark before World War I. This was the origin of the cartridge now commonly called "9mm Largo." After the war, the Danes wanted some more, but the Belgian tooling had been destroyed, so they licensed its production in the Danish Royal Arsenal in Copenhagen.Peter said:Hi Doug, you have a Bergmann-Bayard in your collection!
Only 2204 were manufactured. This one was made in 1924, and is a transitional model between the early and late variations. And the wood grips in their characteristic pattern came from a later arsenal refit. Some history like this gives the piece some character!
The Vektor above is rare too, becuase shortly after commercial distribution, I think within a year, they were recalled to the factory due to a safety-related concern. The company tracked down all the buyers and offered inducements to buy them back. I ignored them... The gun was never reissued with the problem resolved. So I don't know how few others exist.
And beneath the modernistic styling, the mechanical design is interesting too, as it's a "gas-retarded blowback" design like the HK P7, Heritage Stealth, and the rare Chinese Norinco 77B. About the only characteristics it shares with the Bergmann-Bayard is the 9mm bore (it takes the common 9mm Parabellum), and the manual safety integrated with the front of the trigger guard.
Well... that's gun collector chatter; now back to our talk of cameras old and new...
Forgot to mention that my two illustrations were done without a camera; the guns were simply laid on the platten of the flatbed scanner and scanned.
davidcreede
Newbie
Browning N65?
Browning N65?
think of it, a handgun that weighs 5 ounces, made entirely of polycarbonate, except the barrel it would be aluminium, auto everything, automatic sight adjustment, automatic loading, automatic cocking, automatic magazine release, i mean really, who would want manual features at all?
Browning N65?
think of it, a handgun that weighs 5 ounces, made entirely of polycarbonate, except the barrel it would be aluminium, auto everything, automatic sight adjustment, automatic loading, automatic cocking, automatic magazine release, i mean really, who would want manual features at all?
doubs43
Well-known
Doug, are you familiar with the Czech CZ-52 service pistol? A lot of them have been imported in recent years, chambered for the 7.62x25 Tokarev cartridge which the Czechs hot-rodded to roughly 1600 fps. Anyway, Century Arms brought some in with a second, 9mm Parabellum (Luger) chambered barrel and also sold some with only the 9mm barrel. I have one that has had the Luger chamber opened up to accept the 9mm Largo. I haven't shot it much but the Largo feeds through the mag perfectly. I reload the Largo cartridge using 38 Super dies and keep the velocities reasonable. I have several other pistols that also fire the Largo cartridge.
Walker
Walker
TPPhotog
Well-known
I don't have them now as it's too much hassle in the UK to own firearms, plus my current wife hates them. I used to shoot smallbore target rifle for about 10 or 12 years. I was represented the County for about 3 years and also represented the Police Force I was with for 4 years.
Very cool, Walker! I too had the chamber in the 9mm bbl (furnished by Century with the CZ-52) lengthened to 9mm Largo/9x23mm Winchester dimensions for more reliable feeding. Sort of defeated the purpose of the 9x17 barrel though, intended to make the CZ more salable through accepting such common ammo. Oh well, whatever works!
Consulting with Wolff Springs, we came up with a stronger recoil spring to control battering (I see they now offer a couple of spring choices for this model), and avoid launching spent cases into orbit. 38 ACP and 38 Super have a bit larger rim, so they didn't extract or feed well in mine. I use 9x23 Win dies, as the Super's web diameter is a bit smaller. I figure standard-pressure loads for 9mm Largo should be plenty safe in this barrel...
Sounds like we've been having some similar fun with these!
Consulting with Wolff Springs, we came up with a stronger recoil spring to control battering (I see they now offer a couple of spring choices for this model), and avoid launching spent cases into orbit. 38 ACP and 38 Super have a bit larger rim, so they didn't extract or feed well in mine. I use 9x23 Win dies, as the Super's web diameter is a bit smaller. I figure standard-pressure loads for 9mm Largo should be plenty safe in this barrel...
Sounds like we've been having some similar fun with these!
tekgypsy
TekGypsy
Wayne R. Scott said:
and another Wayne here.... 18 months as a markmanship instructor at MCRD Parris Island... always shot high expert with the rifle (couldn't hit the floor with a pistol), went for tyro on the rifle/pistol team
don't own any weapons at all now... the limp-wristed congress critters haven't outlawed cameras... yet.
i have already indicated my photo technique (or lack thereof) in the Street Ninjas thread....
there are a lot of similarities...
S
sychan
Guest
Anyone want to trade for my HK P7PSP?
Anyone want to trade for my HK P7PSP?
I'm also a shooter, but haven't been shooting guns much since I started shooting cameras. There's a HK P7 PSP in my safe that I've been trying to decide what to do with (talk about fine German mechanical devices - it makes my Leica M2 seem coarse and primitive).
Anyone want to trade me some RF gear of comparable value for it? I'm not kidding!
ps.
You guys shooting the CZ-52s are aware that the decockers on those are kind of squirrelly and have been known to act as a second trigger at times, right?!! I'm not some kind of HK snob either - I used to own a CZ PCR, and have lusted after a CZ-75SA for a while.
Anyone want to trade for my HK P7PSP?
I'm also a shooter, but haven't been shooting guns much since I started shooting cameras. There's a HK P7 PSP in my safe that I've been trying to decide what to do with (talk about fine German mechanical devices - it makes my Leica M2 seem coarse and primitive).
Anyone want to trade me some RF gear of comparable value for it? I'm not kidding!
ps.
You guys shooting the CZ-52s are aware that the decockers on those are kind of squirrelly and have been known to act as a second trigger at times, right?!! I'm not some kind of HK snob either - I used to own a CZ PCR, and have lusted after a CZ-75SA for a while.
Bit of danger of this turning into the Gunslinger Forum! Yeah, I knew about the unfortunate unreliability of the CZ-52 decocker, good to keep that in mind. There've also been incidents with other pistols' decockers, so I just don't use them at all... Probably a good idea to let the hammer down gently in any case.
You've got a gem, there, sychan in the P7, a very innovative and excellent design. Very fast into action too; designed for police use and good in that role. I think yours is the first variation, isn't it; direct predecessor of the P7 M8. Mine is the little P7 K3 model...
You've got a gem, there, sychan in the P7, a very innovative and excellent design. Very fast into action too; designed for police use and good in that role. I think yours is the first variation, isn't it; direct predecessor of the P7 M8. Mine is the little P7 K3 model...
doubs43
Well-known
Doug said:38 ACP and 38 Super have a bit larger rim, so they didn't extract or feed well in mine. I use 9x23 Win dies, as the Super's web diameter is a bit smaller. I figure standard-pressure loads for 9mm Largo should be plenty safe in this barrel...
Sounds like we've been having some similar fun with these!
IIRC, I initially used 9mm Winchester Magnum brass that I trimmed to the correct length. I later bought brass from Starline. The only pistol I've used the semi-rimmed cases (38 ACP or 38 Super cases loaded to Largo pressures) in is the Astra 400 which will handle the semi-rim cases OK. The hood on the barrels of the 1911 look-alikes (Stars) can be relieved to seat and fire the semi-rimmed cartridges but I never liked the idea myself. The 9x23 Mag cases you used have a much thicker web than normal cases and gave you an even greater margin of safety.
I load for some not-so-common cartridges such as the .30 Luger and 7.63 Mauser pistol. I've always had a "thing" for the .30 Luger and own a number of different pistols for the caliber.
Walker
BAPIEMAI
Member
Actually I used to be a special forces sniper a few years ago and it has really helped me to shoot handheld in low light situations. Other than that I hate guns, I think owning a gun is a sign of weakness (no offence intended to anyone). For self defence I prefer my hands (I'd like to see someone try to take my leica when I get one)
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Sign of weakness? Hmmm... In what way? Immaturity, maybe, and (if they think they do much for 'self-protection') naivety. A friend of mine used to have a Bren gun in the basement in Lhasa but as he said, when the Chinese used tanks and aircraft to invade and subjugate Tibet, there wasn't much you could keep at home that would stop them. Though the Swiss really do seem to have the 'well regulated militia' that the American constitution envisioned.
Like most small boys I had an air pistol and then an air rifle, and I always enjoyed target shooting. At school, we were required to learn rifle shooting (Cadet Corps) and I was pretty good. Then, years later, my late father-in-law was a crack pistol shot (he was head of the Cornell team in the early 30s and he went on getting better for decades) and in the 90s I inherited some of his guns, including a Colt 45 National Match from his Cornell days.
Partly there is the engineering, but there's also the fascination/challenge of using something that is better at what it does than I am: the National Match doesn't limit my marksmanship, just as an MP doesn't limit my photography. It's a different challenge from making things work that don't really want to work, like digital cameras or computers.
Finally, I think that everyone should be required, as part of the school curriculum, to learn to use firearms so that their ideas don't come from Hollywood, where even 44 magnums merely inflict small flesh wounds on the goodies while 22 pistols instantly kill all the baddies, sometimes at 48 to the magazine. They can give them up as soon as they like, but at least they might require some respect for the things and realize that unless you are careful they are seriously dangerous.
Cheers,
Roger
Like most small boys I had an air pistol and then an air rifle, and I always enjoyed target shooting. At school, we were required to learn rifle shooting (Cadet Corps) and I was pretty good. Then, years later, my late father-in-law was a crack pistol shot (he was head of the Cornell team in the early 30s and he went on getting better for decades) and in the 90s I inherited some of his guns, including a Colt 45 National Match from his Cornell days.
Partly there is the engineering, but there's also the fascination/challenge of using something that is better at what it does than I am: the National Match doesn't limit my marksmanship, just as an MP doesn't limit my photography. It's a different challenge from making things work that don't really want to work, like digital cameras or computers.
Finally, I think that everyone should be required, as part of the school curriculum, to learn to use firearms so that their ideas don't come from Hollywood, where even 44 magnums merely inflict small flesh wounds on the goodies while 22 pistols instantly kill all the baddies, sometimes at 48 to the magazine. They can give them up as soon as they like, but at least they might require some respect for the things and realize that unless you are careful they are seriously dangerous.
Cheers,
Roger
BAPIEMAI
Member
'...In what way? Immaturity, maybe...'
I mean exactly that. Here in Greece owning a gun is illegal and it is very difficult to get a permit. The people which do own guns here think themselves as John Rambo and I don't mean kids but adults in their 30s.
And don't get me started about the army, there was a guy in my platoon who was a regular Commando, tall, strong full of self confidence. The moron when he thought noone watched talked to the gun. So this great Special Forces Commando when he got a transfer he didn't like he was crying like a baby yelling he will quit and escape and stuff like that.
And let's ask this what is the purpose of a gun ? To kill people and for sport. I don't like the idea of killing anyone and for sport shooting I prefer my EOS with 75-300.
I mean exactly that. Here in Greece owning a gun is illegal and it is very difficult to get a permit. The people which do own guns here think themselves as John Rambo and I don't mean kids but adults in their 30s.
And don't get me started about the army, there was a guy in my platoon who was a regular Commando, tall, strong full of self confidence. The moron when he thought noone watched talked to the gun. So this great Special Forces Commando when he got a transfer he didn't like he was crying like a baby yelling he will quit and escape and stuff like that.
And let's ask this what is the purpose of a gun ? To kill people and for sport. I don't like the idea of killing anyone and for sport shooting I prefer my EOS with 75-300.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Bapiemai,
The very illegality of it is one of the worrying aspects. The anti-gun hysteria in Britain is characteristic of a somewhat hysterical nation (the Dangerous Dogs Act is another example, or the current paedophile hysteria): I just don't like being told I can't own a gun. When they were legal I never considered buying one, but once I had firearms (by accident, as I say above), I was damned if I was going to give them up when they were suddenly made illegal.
Then again, if I were the kind of illiberal, authoritarian control freak that Britain has selected for most Home Secretaries in the last decade or more, I suppose I'd want to ban guns too, knowing I'd be a favoured target.
As for the purpose of a gun, apart from shooting Home Secretaries, don't forget too that some farmers can make an excellent case for vermin control with guns. What am I saying, APART FROM Home Secretaries?
Also, well-regulated hunting is defensible; the Germans and Czechs (for example) don't seem to slaughter one another when hunting in quite the same numbers that some other nationalities do. But of course these are long guns rather than pistols -- though where I live, hare are so plentiful this year I reckon I'd be OK with a pistol... And I do like hare!
I fully take your point about the morons and the Rambos but wouldn't you say that even a moron might have slightly more respect for a gun once he'd seen what happened when the bullet hits something -- straight through planks of wood, that sort of thing -- and that the best place for this would be at school, which is rarely associated with excitement and the illicit?
Cheers,
Roger
The very illegality of it is one of the worrying aspects. The anti-gun hysteria in Britain is characteristic of a somewhat hysterical nation (the Dangerous Dogs Act is another example, or the current paedophile hysteria): I just don't like being told I can't own a gun. When they were legal I never considered buying one, but once I had firearms (by accident, as I say above), I was damned if I was going to give them up when they were suddenly made illegal.
Then again, if I were the kind of illiberal, authoritarian control freak that Britain has selected for most Home Secretaries in the last decade or more, I suppose I'd want to ban guns too, knowing I'd be a favoured target.
As for the purpose of a gun, apart from shooting Home Secretaries, don't forget too that some farmers can make an excellent case for vermin control with guns. What am I saying, APART FROM Home Secretaries?
Also, well-regulated hunting is defensible; the Germans and Czechs (for example) don't seem to slaughter one another when hunting in quite the same numbers that some other nationalities do. But of course these are long guns rather than pistols -- though where I live, hare are so plentiful this year I reckon I'd be OK with a pistol... And I do like hare!
I fully take your point about the morons and the Rambos but wouldn't you say that even a moron might have slightly more respect for a gun once he'd seen what happened when the bullet hits something -- straight through planks of wood, that sort of thing -- and that the best place for this would be at school, which is rarely associated with excitement and the illicit?
Cheers,
Roger