cole
Established
I don't usually pipe in on conversations like these, but because I'm feeling wordy, here's my two cents...
I purchased my first Leica, an M7, about 3-4 months ago, and I couldn't be happier. I've experienced a lot of cameras, from fully manual SLRs (Olympus Om-1/2n) to beastly DSLRs (Canon 30D), and I can honestly say the M7 has been the best photographic purchase I've made.
Let's talk realistically here: how likely is it that Leica will stop servicing M7s any time soon? The shutter, if I recall correctly, is rated in excess of 100,000 actuations - especially on a film camera, that is a hell of a lot of actuations to go through for the average person. Regardless, even though the M7 shutter is electronically timed, I can't see Leica running out of parts to service it - and there's always people like DAG and Sherry. It just doesn't make sense for a company that still services cameras made in the 1950's.
Secondly, if you enjoy fully manual exposure, turn that shutter dial past 'AUTO' and go crazy. Personally, even though I'm completely comfortable with fully-manual exposure, I love aperture-priority exposure. I imagine my images with very strong relations to the DOF in advance, and after a brief time, you learn to predict the AE and take control of it if it needs extra compensation (or, you simply switch to full manual) in tough lighting situations.
That said, this is not at all meant to dissuade you from the MP. I think it is also a truly magnificent camera/work of art, and I plan on purchasing it as a second body down to the line to compliment the M7. I only wish to dispel some of the anti-M7 sentiments I'm sensing around here.
Hope this was of some help, and good luck in whatever choice you make.
I purchased my first Leica, an M7, about 3-4 months ago, and I couldn't be happier. I've experienced a lot of cameras, from fully manual SLRs (Olympus Om-1/2n) to beastly DSLRs (Canon 30D), and I can honestly say the M7 has been the best photographic purchase I've made.
Let's talk realistically here: how likely is it that Leica will stop servicing M7s any time soon? The shutter, if I recall correctly, is rated in excess of 100,000 actuations - especially on a film camera, that is a hell of a lot of actuations to go through for the average person. Regardless, even though the M7 shutter is electronically timed, I can't see Leica running out of parts to service it - and there's always people like DAG and Sherry. It just doesn't make sense for a company that still services cameras made in the 1950's.
Secondly, if you enjoy fully manual exposure, turn that shutter dial past 'AUTO' and go crazy. Personally, even though I'm completely comfortable with fully-manual exposure, I love aperture-priority exposure. I imagine my images with very strong relations to the DOF in advance, and after a brief time, you learn to predict the AE and take control of it if it needs extra compensation (or, you simply switch to full manual) in tough lighting situations.
That said, this is not at all meant to dissuade you from the MP. I think it is also a truly magnificent camera/work of art, and I plan on purchasing it as a second body down to the line to compliment the M7. I only wish to dispel some of the anti-M7 sentiments I'm sensing around here.
Hope this was of some help, and good luck in whatever choice you make.
urban_alchemist
Well-known
My history with cameras was with film SLRs - AE every time. My first Leica was the M7, and so it was only natural that I'd also use AE at first.
Then my M7 broke (broken shutter), and I bought my first MP as I was going on a trip and had been looking forward to taking the Leica. Within a few days, I got used to using the manual metering and got almost as fast as with the M7's AE, with consistently better results. You see, and this is crucial, there's no reading for f-stop in the finder, so alot of the time, you'll not be shooting at the aperture you think with the AE.
Now, although I still use my M7 often, i use it exclusively in manual mode (unless I'm being really lazy). It is a bit of a head-f*** though because of that damn shutter-speed dial!
Anyway, in conclusion: get the MP.
Then my M7 broke (broken shutter), and I bought my first MP as I was going on a trip and had been looking forward to taking the Leica. Within a few days, I got used to using the manual metering and got almost as fast as with the M7's AE, with consistently better results. You see, and this is crucial, there's no reading for f-stop in the finder, so alot of the time, you'll not be shooting at the aperture you think with the AE.
Now, although I still use my M7 often, i use it exclusively in manual mode (unless I'm being really lazy). It is a bit of a head-f*** though because of that damn shutter-speed dial!
Anyway, in conclusion: get the MP.
urban_alchemist
Well-known
Errr... I got me one of those (chrome set), and as much as I hate to say it, prefer my bog-standard black paint MP
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Rayt
Nonplayer Character
For a devoted DSLR shooter who wants a film Leica body to pick up now and then as his only Leica in his lifetime I would recommend an original black paint M4.
Ade-oh
Well-known
Yes, I have. The battery in my M6 failed while I was shooting at Auschwitz-Birkenau.
Back to the original question: I bought an MP 'a la carte' as my 'lifetime investment' camera and I haven't regretted it.
amateriat
We're all light!
One camera is Neat, the other, Keen.
That said, I'm with Cole on this one (and my owning a pair of Hexar RFs does bias me here): I'd choose a camera based on how I know I shoot, as opposed to what is considered the "ideal" way to shoot. I may have cheerfully given up AF, multi-pattern metering and five-frames-per-second (not that I used that much when I had it) when I switched from SLRs to RFs, but having that single AE mode was and is important. Perhaps this puts me more in the Tuco/Indiana Jones school of shoot-first-don't-ask-questions-at-all, but I know what works for me now, and if the Hexar didn't exist, it would have to be a pair of M7s. Or ZIs. Manual control is always there when I need or want it. (For some, the temptation to keep that dial on "A" is too much...better, the logic goes, not to have the option at all)
Lifetime investment? This isn't the Hope diamond or Picasso's Guernica we're talking about here: this is a camera that you'll be using–hopefully a lot–and hopefully be generating some personally worthwhile and memorable images with. And you might be living with those images longer than you you will with that camera. The camera that gets you closer to what's in your mind's eye is the camera that will show its mettle, and long-term worthiness that can't be measured by an appraiser. Think about the way you photograph, then think about the cameras you've used up to now, ignoring brand pecking-order or which famous shooter is using it this year. Which one worked best for you? And why?
Then, take a long, careful look at those two Leicas. One is Neat, the other, Keen. In a sense you can't go wrong with either. But you'll likely be better off with one.
- Barrett
That said, I'm with Cole on this one (and my owning a pair of Hexar RFs does bias me here): I'd choose a camera based on how I know I shoot, as opposed to what is considered the "ideal" way to shoot. I may have cheerfully given up AF, multi-pattern metering and five-frames-per-second (not that I used that much when I had it) when I switched from SLRs to RFs, but having that single AE mode was and is important. Perhaps this puts me more in the Tuco/Indiana Jones school of shoot-first-don't-ask-questions-at-all, but I know what works for me now, and if the Hexar didn't exist, it would have to be a pair of M7s. Or ZIs. Manual control is always there when I need or want it. (For some, the temptation to keep that dial on "A" is too much...better, the logic goes, not to have the option at all)
Lifetime investment? This isn't the Hope diamond or Picasso's Guernica we're talking about here: this is a camera that you'll be using–hopefully a lot–and hopefully be generating some personally worthwhile and memorable images with. And you might be living with those images longer than you you will with that camera. The camera that gets you closer to what's in your mind's eye is the camera that will show its mettle, and long-term worthiness that can't be measured by an appraiser. Think about the way you photograph, then think about the cameras you've used up to now, ignoring brand pecking-order or which famous shooter is using it this year. Which one worked best for you? And why?
Then, take a long, careful look at those two Leicas. One is Neat, the other, Keen. In a sense you can't go wrong with either. But you'll likely be better off with one.
- Barrett
Austerby
Well-known
It's not been mentioned whether this is a new or secondhand purchase. If new then do consider buying used - I was unsure too and instead of having to settle for a single new one, bought both a used M7 and a used MP for about the same as a single brand new one. I enjoy using them both and they've been used pretty much equally in the time that I've had them.
By the way, the M7 is great for ultra-wide angled lenses with separate viewfinders - simply pop the 15mm on the front, set the M7 to AE, scale focus at a suitable aperture then fire away using the extenal viewfinder. With the MP you have to look through both the internal viewfinder (to verify the exposure) and the external one (to compose the shot).
If forced to concede one above the other, then I'd probably go for the M7. It has much more usable sophistication than the MP which is more of a nostalgia piece. Of course, less is more to some and another day I may plump for the reverse.
By the way, the M7 is great for ultra-wide angled lenses with separate viewfinders - simply pop the 15mm on the front, set the M7 to AE, scale focus at a suitable aperture then fire away using the extenal viewfinder. With the MP you have to look through both the internal viewfinder (to verify the exposure) and the external one (to compose the shot).
If forced to concede one above the other, then I'd probably go for the M7. It has much more usable sophistication than the MP which is more of a nostalgia piece. Of course, less is more to some and another day I may plump for the reverse.
Zzbog
Newbie
Thank you everybody for replies!!!
I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw 2 pages of replies overnight =)
I'm going for MP!
I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw 2 pages of replies overnight =)
I'm going for MP!
alan davus
Well-known
I own neither but I do use an M6ttl and a Hexar RF thus one manual the other electronic. My battery failed once on my Hexar on the top of the Three Tarns Pass in a very remote part of New Zealand. I pulled out a spare and just kept shooting. The battery failed on the M6 in the Grampians in Victoria a couple of weeks ago and my spare was in my toiletries bag back at camp. Mmmmmm. Lesson learnt. To your question I'd choose a MP because a lifetime (hopefully) is a long time and you can add a M7 at a later date. As to the comment “ it’s all about the glass” I’d say it’s “ all about the mount”. Owning either and you can access so much glass both Leica and otherwise.
tomasis
Well-known
my mind wanders between m7 and mp. when I think about a-whole-life-using-the-camera, MP appears much nicer choice.
I think that manual exposure is much underrated. Since you learn lighting conditions, you shoot like a god. Much faster than Nikon D3 at AF and AE, believe me
For me personally, I appreciate more M3 because I dont like check exposure in VF. And you have use battery, switch on and off on a modern camera. IT is not that tempting.
I think that manual exposure is much underrated. Since you learn lighting conditions, you shoot like a god. Much faster than Nikon D3 at AF and AE, believe me
For me personally, I appreciate more M3 because I dont like check exposure in VF. And you have use battery, switch on and off on a modern camera. IT is not that tempting.
wilt
Well-known
Or the M3, unless you're a 35 mm person.
BillBingham2
Registered User
If there is a market....
If there is a market....
Electronics are a much tricker issue than a gear or shaft. While I hope that Leica has parts for ever, I doubt it. The M7 has a very complex electronic system to fix. Yes Stephen's team can fix dead FTN and some F2 meters, but that is because they run on Non-Integrated Chips and parts. If you fry a chip (integrated circuit) and do not have a replacement you are SOL (Sorely Out of Luck). Finding old ICs is not a fun task. It's not impossible but look at the CLE, if your electronics go dead you are dead in the water. Something mechanical Sherry can breath life back into her. The CL I think is old enough that you might be able to find a way to fix. The M7 was made for component replacement not for part repair.
B2 (;->
If there is a market....
Electronics are a much tricker issue than a gear or shaft. While I hope that Leica has parts for ever, I doubt it. The M7 has a very complex electronic system to fix. Yes Stephen's team can fix dead FTN and some F2 meters, but that is because they run on Non-Integrated Chips and parts. If you fry a chip (integrated circuit) and do not have a replacement you are SOL (Sorely Out of Luck). Finding old ICs is not a fun task. It's not impossible but look at the CLE, if your electronics go dead you are dead in the water. Something mechanical Sherry can breath life back into her. The CL I think is old enough that you might be able to find a way to fix. The M7 was made for component replacement not for part repair.
B2 (;->
rolleistef
Well-known
"lifetime investment"... funny that they never ever changed their ads!
rolleistef
Well-known
... so buy an M3!
More seriously, I'd get an MP because it's faster to meter and correct the metering, since it's all on the same dial, whereas on the M7 you've got to compensate with the back dial, which isn't really convenient. Manual metering cameras are easy to use.
More seriously, I'd get an MP because it's faster to meter and correct the metering, since it's all on the same dial, whereas on the M7 you've got to compensate with the back dial, which isn't really convenient. Manual metering cameras are easy to use.
tripod
Well-known
"vast majority"?
This is a perfect example of the genisis of mis-information on the internet. How often will people now repeat this "fact", spreading it farther and wider?
This is a perfect example of the genisis of mis-information on the internet. How often will people now repeat this "fact", spreading it farther and wider?
RichardB
Well-known
Without actually using each camera your are making a decision based on inadequate information. As you have seen by the Posts in answer to your query, there are a multitude of opinions.
I own M3, M6 Classic and two M7's and would not advise you as to which one you should purchase. A reputable Leica dealer should let you use either and then you decide.-Dick
I own M3, M6 Classic and two M7's and would not advise you as to which one you should purchase. A reputable Leica dealer should let you use either and then you decide.-Dick
Slipkid
Sharpshooter
Yes!!! I have had that misfortune in my M6 TTL and was only on frame 3 or 4 of a 36+ roll of film.:bang: Had to go buy some outrageously price batteries at the local drug store to finish out the day. I learned my lesson and my bag now has spare batteries. Or, if I have my camera bad, I also have my M2 or M3 in it, too.
novum
Well-known
That's some solid advice. Oops, I just noticed Marsopa reacted in almost exactly the same way! Obviously, I concur, though.
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monster
Established
in my opinion
i use M7 for 8 months and found sometimes that batteries dies. so, i've to shoot without batteries. sound bad? but not because i often shoot in same location days by days so i can remember light conditions.
AE mode in M7 is useable, good and make life easier!
problem is, i think M7 has another problem, i think on/off switch is too fragile. too sad to say that lower than leica quality!! i've find 2 body of M7 that return to store to fix this problem.
i sell M7 to buy MP because good camera proportions, i think classic top plate that MP smaller than M7 and i fall in love with old fashion rewind crank and so on i fall in love with black paint! that M7 never made in black paint
i think for lifetime shooting MP is better. or looking for used M3 that i think mechanical is the best of the M line instead and use M7 as a easy days.
i use M7 for 8 months and found sometimes that batteries dies. so, i've to shoot without batteries. sound bad? but not because i often shoot in same location days by days so i can remember light conditions.
AE mode in M7 is useable, good and make life easier!
problem is, i think M7 has another problem, i think on/off switch is too fragile. too sad to say that lower than leica quality!! i've find 2 body of M7 that return to store to fix this problem.
i sell M7 to buy MP because good camera proportions, i think classic top plate that MP smaller than M7 and i fall in love with old fashion rewind crank and so on i fall in love with black paint! that M7 never made in black paint
i think for lifetime shooting MP is better. or looking for used M3 that i think mechanical is the best of the M line instead and use M7 as a easy days.
Listak
Spastic Rookie
I was in Hong Kong this past Lunar New Year sitting in the lobby of the Peninsula Hotel at about 9 am on the first day of the holiday waiting for the annual Lion dance to start when a Japanese business man and his wife sat down next to my family and I in the lobby restaurant and saw my all black MP. He leaned over immediately, and in a heavy accent, said. "Leica. Can I see your MP".
True Story.
True Story.