kevin m
Veteran
True. If you care enough to complain, you still care; when you walk away without saying anything, you're probably on your way to trade your M kit for an EOS bag. 
40oz
...
In response to "MP3 - last of the film M's.":
I'd be surprised if that was the case. There is a brisk market in non-metered film Leicas, and the "last of the M incarnation" went for a huge premium, considering anyone who wanted can get an original M3, arguably "the real thing," for under $1000. Seriously, who would give up that kind of sales revenue given the obvious demand? You don't sell every model you make for multiples of the next guy down and conclude "demand is too low to continue this line."
I'd be surprised if that was the case. There is a brisk market in non-metered film Leicas, and the "last of the M incarnation" went for a huge premium, considering anyone who wanted can get an original M3, arguably "the real thing," for under $1000. Seriously, who would give up that kind of sales revenue given the obvious demand? You don't sell every model you make for multiples of the next guy down and conclude "demand is too low to continue this line."
Last edited:
maddoc
... likes film again.
If they would re-produce the M4-P, with the VF of the MP, and for a price of $2000 ... I would buy it new
Nh3
Well-known
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
NH3: You rock dude! LOLOLOLOLOLOL
Athos6
Tao Master
I buy used, its Leica's job to give me a reason to buy new, like reasonably priced bodies and lenes, which they haven't provided yet. The only people Leica should listen too are people like me, without people like me (people who like Leica RF stuff and realize thier P&S panasonic stuff is junk), Leica's gonna die a slow death.
Ade-oh
Well-known
I think it's a bit disturbing to have so much emotionally invested in a camera system.
Fortunately, I have bought new Leica equipment from authorised dealers, so I shall feel fully justified in advising Dr Kaufmann to have an emergency psychiatric team on standby in the event of further adverse news from Solms.
Fortunately, I have bought new Leica equipment from authorised dealers, so I shall feel fully justified in advising Dr Kaufmann to have an emergency psychiatric team on standby in the event of further adverse news from Solms.
TJV
Well-known
I started second hand with an M3 and a M6 Classic. I had zero problems with them, just years of flawless use. When I could afford it, and I could justify it, I bought a new kit. I thought doing that would guarantee me future quality service. i got an M7, 35 lux, 28 Elmarit, 90 Elmarit and 50 cron, then finally an M8. I also paid in full for a Nocti that took over a year to arrive so got a refund - another story altogether. There have been problems with almost all of my new equipment and Leica have been very frustrating to deal with. I'm not sure why I'm still loyal to Leica, except to say I love using M's when they work.
I'm not sure either of your options fits how I feel, but in an ideal world I'd pick option one.
I'm not sure either of your options fits how I feel, but in an ideal world I'd pick option one.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
The poll was couched in unwisely inlammatory terms, and the responses were predictable.
Most of my Leica gear is (and always has been) second hand: I started using Leicas almost 40 years ago, and in all that time I have had 3 new bodies and 3 new lenses, simply because I can't afford more. If I could afford it, I'd go out tomorrow and buy another three MPs (two for my wife, one to replace my M4-P), another M8 (as a back-up -- I've never been happy with a single body of ANY camera), a wide-angle Tri-Elmar and (if I could find one) a new Noctilux.
But whether I buy Leicas or not, I am perfectly free to make whatever criticisms I like about Leica. I'm just not stupid enough, or arrogant enough, to think that Leica will pay much attention to me, as compared to the people who put money in their pockets.
There is, as it happens, an interesting parallel case in Land Rover. When they brought out the new Range Rover, they left the old model in production as (I think) the 'Classic' -- largely in response to a vocal minority who said that they much preferred the old car.
Surprise, surprise: the 'Classic' soon went out of production, because those who could actually afford a new Range Rover bought the new model, and those who were most vocal about the 'Classic' didn't have the money to back up their words.
Cheers,
Roger
Most of my Leica gear is (and always has been) second hand: I started using Leicas almost 40 years ago, and in all that time I have had 3 new bodies and 3 new lenses, simply because I can't afford more. If I could afford it, I'd go out tomorrow and buy another three MPs (two for my wife, one to replace my M4-P), another M8 (as a back-up -- I've never been happy with a single body of ANY camera), a wide-angle Tri-Elmar and (if I could find one) a new Noctilux.
But whether I buy Leicas or not, I am perfectly free to make whatever criticisms I like about Leica. I'm just not stupid enough, or arrogant enough, to think that Leica will pay much attention to me, as compared to the people who put money in their pockets.
There is, as it happens, an interesting parallel case in Land Rover. When they brought out the new Range Rover, they left the old model in production as (I think) the 'Classic' -- largely in response to a vocal minority who said that they much preferred the old car.
Surprise, surprise: the 'Classic' soon went out of production, because those who could actually afford a new Range Rover bought the new model, and those who were most vocal about the 'Classic' didn't have the money to back up their words.
Cheers,
Roger
Pherdinand
the snow must go on
buying used leica does not make you a cheapskate.
Buying new leica makes you a millionaire (or an addict/obsessed).
But i agree. There are some funny threads here about what we would like to see from Leica (or from C/V or...) and people come with great ideas that they would never pay for.
We are all dreamers. I guess that's allowed!
Buying new leica makes you a millionaire (or an addict/obsessed).
But i agree. There are some funny threads here about what we would like to see from Leica (or from C/V or...) and people come with great ideas that they would never pay for.
We are all dreamers. I guess that's allowed!
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
With Leica, most of the vocal complainers are asking for a camera that is within the realm of affordability for professional photographers. We use Canon and Nikon for a reason...excellent cameras at prices pros can afford from companies who listen to us and give us what we need.
Roger, don't you find it interesting that you, an internationally known professional photographer, cannot afford new Leica eqipment? If someone like you (who I presume earns a decent middle-class income, like most professionals) cannot then what photographer can?
They've priced the very people most likely to buy a Leica out of the market. Sure, a Top of the line Nikon also costs $5000, but the lenses cost a fraction of what Leica lenses cost. I have 6 lenses for my Nikon system, all primes, and none cost more than $400 new. (I have the AF 24/2.8, AF 28/2.8, AF 50/1.4, AF 85/1.8, and a Sigma Fisheye and a Sigma 50/2.8 macro). They're all excellent lenses fully capable of the highest quality results and widely used by money-earning pros. Well, the Sigma fisheye is not that great...Nikon's version is sharper but it is only $600. What does Leica charge for the focal length/aperture lenses I listed? $2000 or $3000 EACH, right?
Robin P
Well-known
Thanks Roger, I really enjoyed that example - supports my theory that society has gone to pot because all the money seems to fall into the hands of people with bad taste. Those new Range Rovers are spectacularly ugly, the phrase "shed on wheels" springs to mind.
Oh, sorry, this forum is about cameras isn't it?
I have never owned a Leica product, either new or SH (can't justify the expense for me) but that doesn't mean I'm indifferent to their stuff as what they do may influence the manufacturers whose wares I can afford.
Cheers, Robin
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Christopher,
First of all, I'd suggest that Leica can't make Leicas cheaper. They could make a different camera that was cheaper, but what they make is essentially a luxury product.
If you want a more affordable RF camera, buy a Zeiss Ikon. It's very nice, and professionally usable -- the difference between ZI pics and Leica pics is unlikely to be apparent in the hands of a half-way competent photographer -- and it's half the price of an MP. Come to that, I've had lots published that was shot with Voigtländers. But the MP is just, well, nicer: that's part of what luxury is about.
Merely because something is a luxury, doesn't mean it's useless. A Rolls-Royce is still a car; Louis Vuitton luggage can still be used as luggage. And a Leica is still a bloody good camera.
As for my income, you flatter me. I'm much better known as a journalist and writer of books than as a photographer, and neither journalism nor writing is especially lucrative. Mind you, they're easier than any other form of professional photography I've tried.
A Leica is not, in any case, the sort of camera most people can use to earn a living. In advertising, for example, it was 4x5 inch (and bigger) and roll-film 30 years ago; today it's high resolution Hasselblad gear.
If I were still working in advertising, I'd have to buy (or hire) the Hasselblad. When I was shooting food and other book illustration commissions, I had to use MF and LF -- Linhof, Mamiya RB and Hasselblad. But I HAD to have those, so for me, as for remarkably many professionals I know or knew, a Leica was the camera for personal work.
Today, it's different. I write the sort of books and magazine articles that can be illustrated with a Leica, but even then, I HAD to have an M8 because you can't earn a living by selling magazine articles illustrated only with film. Yes, I could use a DSLR instead, but I enjoy using the M8 almost as much as using a 'real' Leica, whereas I use DSLRs mainly because I have to.
Finally, one of the reasons I've never been able to afford much new Leica gear is that for the 27 years I've been a freelance, I've preferred to spend my money on travel. I'd rather have a second-hand Leica, and travel abroad to take pictures with it, than a new Leica, and have to stay home because I can't afford to travel. A second new M8 would pay for a month or more in India, and I know which I'd rather have.
Cheers,
Roger
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Robin,
As in the old saying, "If you want to know God's opinion of money, look at those to whom he gives it."
The thing is that 50 years ago, far fewer people aspired (realistically) to buying a Leica -- and of course there were far fewer used Leicas about. Most people who bought new Leicas were, indeed, rich amateurs.
Today, with much higher wealth levels and a surfeit of used Leicas, the majority of people can realistically afford a used Leica if they really want one. They therefore imagine that the new Leica market has in some way changed. It hasn't.
Cheers,
Roger
tripod
Well-known
The wording used in the original post seemed to me purposefully designed to stir up trouble.
Colman
Established
As is often the case.
Ororaro
Well-known
Hé le Clown, qu'est-ce que ca veut dire to shut the *** up? T'as oublié de boire tes pillules?
Ororaro
Well-known
Ah, some funny answers here attacking me personally. How different. Some buy a whole Leica kit for 675$ and they criticize the company for being an elitist overpriced company. He...
Ororaro
Well-known
I don't understand your language. What does **** mean?
Maybe **** means pill and you forgot to take it this morning?
yanidel
Well-known
This is a public forum, you get to see all kind of people and personnalities. As a reflection of that, some threads might be provocative, sarcastic and displease you but not everybody will perceive it the same way. If you don't like a thread (and the person starting it), then you are probably better off not participation, but insults lead nowhere.