kevin m
Veteran
I agree. For film.
Digital is another capture medium, though, with its own requirements. For a "basics" camera like the M to not have a dedicated iso buttton/knob/lever is as big an error as not having a shutter speed dial or aperture ring at hand. A dedicated exposure compensation button is fairly a requirement as well, as the half steps on an aperture ring aren't always adequate, and having to use a menu runs counter to the immediacy of using an M.
The basic shape of the body is about perfect, they just need to tweak it a bit to make it really sing as a digital platform.
tomasis
Well-known
indeed, kevin
it is a lot to improve on digital M which needs now. maybe the development will never ends due its nature. but at film side it looks like everything is perfected. no longer need for improvements for analog camera. M3 is very modern camera now after 50 years
it is a lot to improve on digital M which needs now. maybe the development will never ends due its nature. but at film side it looks like everything is perfected. no longer need for improvements for analog camera. M3 is very modern camera now after 50 years
mich8261
Well-known
I disagree
I disagree
I've only purchased used Leica (M2, 50DR and a 90) which could lead me some day to purchase new. But I think more importantly, if Leica didn't have such a good resale value it could not maintain such a high initial cost. Therefore the used market is part of the whole plan.
I disagree
I've only purchased used Leica (M2, 50DR and a 90) which could lead me some day to purchase new. But I think more importantly, if Leica didn't have such a good resale value it could not maintain such a high initial cost. Therefore the used market is part of the whole plan.
ruby.monkey
Veteran
I have only bought used, so I guess I deserve to be overlooked; but since there's already almost a century's worth of Leica kit out there for me to play with, I don't think I have to care too much.
mfunnell
Shaken, so blurred
Hmmm... While skimming the above I didn't notice anyone making the (IMO obvious) point that a high resale value for 2nd-hand gear makes the high new-equipment purchase price look a lot more attractive. If I were to buy a new Leica lens I would certainly factor in the case that if I ended up not-so-enamoured of it I could offload it without too much of a loss. I've even been that buyer (picking up an Elmar 50/2.8 that was less than a year old, via Tony Rose, for a discount on new - but not a large one).
So you can't simply dismiss 2nd-hand buyers as being of no influence on new purchases, even at the level of straight buy-and-sell economics.
OTOH, it has to be a tough gig selling into a market where things you produced 50+ years ago are still actually competitive with your new products. All the while having to cater to the fact that market is the only (or, best case, primary) source of demand for your products. It is, it must be said, an unusual market position - so much so that I'm not at all sure that any kind of "conventional marketing wisdom" is really applicable. Including the view that "people who don't buy new should have no say". They make up a substantial part of the overall market for Leica's products and influence its direction quite strongly, whether they buy new or not.
Leica may not like that, but they surely have to live with it.
...Mike
So you can't simply dismiss 2nd-hand buyers as being of no influence on new purchases, even at the level of straight buy-and-sell economics.
OTOH, it has to be a tough gig selling into a market where things you produced 50+ years ago are still actually competitive with your new products. All the while having to cater to the fact that market is the only (or, best case, primary) source of demand for your products. It is, it must be said, an unusual market position - so much so that I'm not at all sure that any kind of "conventional marketing wisdom" is really applicable. Including the view that "people who don't buy new should have no say". They make up a substantial part of the overall market for Leica's products and influence its direction quite strongly, whether they buy new or not.
Leica may not like that, but they surely have to live with it.
...Mike
kennethcooke
Established
I could not have put it better, and on another point, I assume, maybe wrongly that you are a bass player. I am a big ECM records fan and of course Manfred Eicher GEO of ECM is also. I feel sure that is why the recordings are so beautifully produced. I buy new and used ECM records as well as new and used Leica so what does that make me?
lewis44
Well-known
Ned,
I really get a kick out of your posts. You stir the pot and get some very interesting responses.
I almost always buy used and don't expect Leica to listen to anything I have to say. All I want from them is to keep a good supply of parts for what they have already made and keep my old M's in good working order.
I give thanks to the likes of Don and Sherry for what they do and as long as people like them are around, I feel quite secure that my M's will live forever.
I can't think of anything NEW that Leica can come up with , product wise, that would entice me to update my gear so I really ask nothing more of them. The M8 is something I would buy if I could justify the expense, but I can't and so I muddle through life with my old gear and am quite amazed at how good it still is.
Years ago, when I tried to make a living at it, Nikon was the best choice for that, but always had an M to sooth my soul. Nikon did seem to listen to their customers, especially the working stiffs, but it's been a long time and I don't know how they are doing with that now.
Nikon and to some extent, Pentax have seemed to try and keep their base customers and create new products that will work with old gear, unlike Canon, when they changed their lens mount.
Unfortunately, Leica now seems to be a boutique brand and I would not be one they would even consider listening to. I find that to be comforting.
I really get a kick out of your posts. You stir the pot and get some very interesting responses.
I almost always buy used and don't expect Leica to listen to anything I have to say. All I want from them is to keep a good supply of parts for what they have already made and keep my old M's in good working order.
I give thanks to the likes of Don and Sherry for what they do and as long as people like them are around, I feel quite secure that my M's will live forever.
I can't think of anything NEW that Leica can come up with , product wise, that would entice me to update my gear so I really ask nothing more of them. The M8 is something I would buy if I could justify the expense, but I can't and so I muddle through life with my old gear and am quite amazed at how good it still is.
Years ago, when I tried to make a living at it, Nikon was the best choice for that, but always had an M to sooth my soul. Nikon did seem to listen to their customers, especially the working stiffs, but it's been a long time and I don't know how they are doing with that now.
Nikon and to some extent, Pentax have seemed to try and keep their base customers and create new products that will work with old gear, unlike Canon, when they changed their lens mount.
Unfortunately, Leica now seems to be a boutique brand and I would not be one they would even consider listening to. I find that to be comforting.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Real ...
Unreal ...
Unreal ...
M
M like Leica M6
Guest
Unreal ...
__________________
RFF gallery
looking for a second hand Zeiss 25mm Biogon
I am sure someone will offer you that lens. But nobody will trade such a good lens for a pesky blonde b****.
kennethcooke
Established
The higher cost of Leica products is due
The higher cost of Leica products is due
The main reason for the higher cost of Leica cameras is that Leica do not have the volume of sales which, say Nikon have so the R&D costs are not offset as much. They will also not compromise on quality. In manufacturing one can make a product at a price point or one can make a product with no compromise and then work out a price for it. I would think the latter approach is the one adopted by Leica.
The same would be true of, say a Ferrari. When Ferrari make a new model they do not make it at a price. They also do not have the volume of sales as, say Fiat so again the R&D costs are not spread as thinly.
The fact that Leica, like Ferrari build their product with no compromise is good new for the merry band of us who buy Leica second hand. By and large we can buy with confidence knowing that the product is so well engineered, in fact almost over engineered, that we will get a product that will give many years service.
If I was very rich would I buy my Leica equ. new? Maybe , maybe not. As I am not rich and buy second hand should I be allowed to comment? Most emphatically, yes. Did our forefathers not lay down their lives so as I could have freedom of speech.
The higher cost of Leica products is due
The main reason for the higher cost of Leica cameras is that Leica do not have the volume of sales which, say Nikon have so the R&D costs are not offset as much. They will also not compromise on quality. In manufacturing one can make a product at a price point or one can make a product with no compromise and then work out a price for it. I would think the latter approach is the one adopted by Leica.
The same would be true of, say a Ferrari. When Ferrari make a new model they do not make it at a price. They also do not have the volume of sales as, say Fiat so again the R&D costs are not spread as thinly.
The fact that Leica, like Ferrari build their product with no compromise is good new for the merry band of us who buy Leica second hand. By and large we can buy with confidence knowing that the product is so well engineered, in fact almost over engineered, that we will get a product that will give many years service.
If I was very rich would I buy my Leica equ. new? Maybe , maybe not. As I am not rich and buy second hand should I be allowed to comment? Most emphatically, yes. Did our forefathers not lay down their lives so as I could have freedom of speech.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Kenneth,
Which ones?
Seriously, your answer will lead either to 'how can I have forgotten THEM?' or to 'ah, I couldn't think of any either'.
(Admittedly it is after dinner: magret de canard with braised fennel and baked potatoes, accompanied by a sparkling Saumur. Then there's the apéritif, and the digestif that I'm currently enjoying, so it could easily be the former).
Cheers,
Roger
Last edited:
kennethcooke
Established
So what did you make of the rest of the content- apologies if I caused you any indigestion but really!
What!
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Kenneth,
I wasn't complaining: merely unable to think of any. Nor any indigestion: merely, shall we say 'feeling no pain' (except perhaps in a toe I may have broken on Sunday, slipping on a spiral staircase in the 1000-year-old donjon a few hundred yards from my house while photographing a concert).
Trying to remember economics lectures some decades ago, I seem to recall a distinction between 'market led' (built to a price) and 'product led' (build it as well as you can, price it afterwards) -- which is pretty much what you were saying.
The only point to add to what you said, with which I pretty much agree, is that a lot of people fail to see the difference between building something as well as possible, usually by hand (possibility of error, but normally reparable indefinitely) and building something well and cheaply by machine (often designed for ease of assembly on a line, plus 'reasonable' life expectancy, at which point you might as well scrap it).
When I started using Leicas almost 40 years ago, I had friends who had been using them for 20 and 30 and more years before that (an uncle of my first wife had a fixed-lens Model A he'd bought new). No-one expected them to take perfect pictures in every circumstance, because no camera will: good pictures are the photographer's responsibility, and although it makes sense to use the best tools you can afford, no tool is perfect.
Cheers,
Roger
Last edited:
kennethcooke
Established
Roger
Thank you for your reply I could not agree more. Hope the toe is better soon. I found your website excellent and look forward to further study. Although I have taken pictures, mainly mountain landscape, since the 60's with a variety of different cameras I am renewing my acquaintance with Leica M series cameras again
Thank you for your reply I could not agree more. Hope the toe is better soon. I found your website excellent and look forward to further study. Although I have taken pictures, mainly mountain landscape, since the 60's with a variety of different cameras I am renewing my acquaintance with Leica M series cameras again
BillBingham2
Registered User
Initially I bought all my Leica gear new/demo from a dealer. Over the years I got a few older used items. As we drive towards a global slow down I expect Leica might have troubles again. IMHO Leica has their head so far up their butt that they have no idea how to build anything but THE BEST. They need to look at BMW as an example of someone who is doing it better. They have a range of products and at the lower end, the Cooper Mini family. They use LOTS of BMW parts in her and still make a reasonable profit.
Leica needs a break through product that takes them back to their roots. I think that they do not have the guts to listen to ideas from outside of the Motherland.
B2 (;->
Leica needs a break through product that takes them back to their roots. I think that they do not have the guts to listen to ideas from outside of the Motherland.
B2 (;->
Robin P
Well-known
Bill I would hope that as this global slow down approaches we lose all of BMW's products - none of them can be justified purchases today, even that ridiculously overpriced big "mini".
The difference is that Leica is the kind of luxury it would be sad to lose from the market.
Cheers, Robin
yanidel
Well-known
Go tell that to the millions of owners of minis all over Europe ... there are more minis in Paris than M8's in the whole world.
Robin P
Well-known
Yes I've noticed how French taste in cars has been corrupted in recent years, I believe your president even has a Lexus - ugh!... there are more minis in Paris than M8's in the whole world.
My point is that the Western World's 100 year love affair with the infernal combustion engine must stop soon but cameras are a fairly harmless luxury in comparison.
Cheers, Robin
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Go tell that to the millions of owners of minis all over Europe ... there are more minis in Paris than M8's in the whole world.
True. But consider what the rest of France thinks of Parisians. As they say in Brittany of incomers (non-locals who buy houses), "Mieux un anglais qu'un parisien." (Translation: better an Englishman than a Parisian.)
Cheers,
R.
yanidel
Well-known
Better have a Lexus and wake up next to Carla Bruni than a Bentley and wake up next to Sarah Brown ...
I got your point.