Quality, durability and reparability

[bmattock]

Well said (pocketbook=wallet?)

The term can refer to either a 'purse', a 'billfold' (or wallet), or as I meant it, one's financial resources. Sorry for the confusion, I should have been more clear.

 

[Gumby]

(pocketbook=wallet?)

Yes. Synonomous with 'credit/debit card balance'.

 

[bmattock]

It use to make me puke when decades ago eveyone talked about Japanese quality, because use to be American products were universally highly regarded.

American mechanical wristwatches were far better than anything made by the Swiss (or the Japanese) prior to WWII. "Made in Japan" used to mean cheap and crappy. Times change.

However, a Casio keeps better time than the best American watch ever made. So which do you want, a well-made watch or a crap watch that keeps better time for less money? That's the ultimate question that consumers must answer for themselves. When dealing with technology, do you want the latest, or do you want high quality?

This is the same question that Leica asks with their M8 and now the M8.2. Very high quality - but now people are already asking where the M9 is. There were how many years between the M3 and M4, the M5 and M6? Leica faces the dilemma I said they'd face - high build quality, but it is still obsolete in relatively short order, unlike the equivalent film-body camera. So how now, Leica? Starting building a new model every six months, or tell consumers to be content with what they have for five to ten years, while Canon and Nikon digital SLR's continue to carve Leica's guts out?

I learned to buy the best; because it has enduring value; is cheaper in the extreame long run;

I disagree. My parents bought a Curtis-Mathis B&W television set back in the early 1960's. For all I know, it still works ('the most expensive television set in American, and darn well worth it' as they advertised it then). So what? I don't want to watch TV on an old, small, B&W set. I'd love to have a '55 Chevy, but I have no interest in a '55 B&W TV set or kitchen appliances or a 1955 washer and dryer.

But even the 1955 Chevy would kill me in a head-on collision; but you could hose it out and sell it to the next coffin-stuffer. A cheap-as-chips Korean compact car would crumple up as designed, protect me, and I might walk away. Enduring value? Yes, but I want ME to be the enduring value, not the car.

My point is that technology in flux changes what 'enduring value' means.

 

[MCTuomey]

Demand drives manufacturing, not the other way around.

And marketing can drive demand. So what is your point in the end?

Strictly speaking, if you're right, there would never need to be an inventory liquidation (fire sale) ...

Marketing often is allied with manufacturing in commercial organizations. Demand is influenced by product offerings, ad campaigns, etc. You can't seriously believe that demand/consumption, production, marketing all somehow behave as single set variables in the actual world, can you?

So simplistic, your worldview ... it is a stew out there in the Eco-nomy, not a neat set of equations.

 

[Gumby]

So simplistic, your worldview

That's our bmattock. 😀

If nothing else, it keeps the conversation going!

 

[bmattock]

And marketing can drive demand. So what is your point in the end?

Strictly speaking, if you're right, there would never need to be an inventory liquidation (fire sale) ...

Marketing often is allied with manufacturing in commercial organizations. Demand is influenced by product offerings, ad campaigns, etc. You can't seriously believe that demand/consumption, production, marketing all somehow behave as single set variables in the actual world, can you?

So simplistic, your worldview ... it is a stew out there in the Eco-nomy, not a neat set of equations.

You are right, I am oversimplifying for the sake of explanation. My point was simply to take an opposing view to the often-presumed belief that manufacturers 'make' people buy things that are shoddy or that are not desired. The 'evil corporation' worldview is one I do not share.

 

[visiondr]

I learned to buy the best; because it has enduring value; is cheaper in the extreame long run; and because I have nostalia. Also learned never to regret buying the best because anytime I compromised I later regreted it...l

I'd have to agree here. My father taught me that if something is worth spending my hard earned money on, it dammed well better be worth it.

Today, my standards have shifted somewhat. I now very seriously consider the environmental cost of the stuff I buy. The working conditions of those making the product (where those can be determined) also enter into the equation.

www.storyofstuff.com

Our disposable culture has and is getting us into heaps of trouble - heaps of garbage and environmental degradation, that is. There are also human costs to the consumer choices we make. Don't forget that when you pick up those soft cushy 'crocs' or croc knock offs at the local emporium.

An example: The environmental cost to produce a shirt from 10oz cotton fabric is the just a fraction more than that to produce one from 6 oz fabric. Of course more cotton needs to be grown and all the environmental issues that may pose. But, the end cost is vastly different because the 6 oz shirt will have to be replaced more often and thus more waste is produced at all parts of the production cycle while the 10oz shirt is going strong.

Yes, that Casio watch looks cool and keeps stellar time. But, LCD screens, batteries and plastics aren't exactly environmentally neutral. That old metal and glass mechanical watch will last longer and isn't nearly as environmentally problematic.

 

[bmattock]

Yes, that Casio watch looks cool and keeps stellar time. But, LCD screens, batteries and plastics aren't exactly environmentally neutral. That old metal and glass mechanical watch will last longer and isn't nearly as environmentally problematic.

Everyone has to decide for themselves what their values are surrounding purchasing decisions. But the market as a whole has chosen to value accurate, cheap, timepieces over well-made, expensive, mechanical wristwatches. And that would be why Casio makes them for the masses, and Omega makes mechanical watches at 10,000% more expense for those who value the latter.

If your choices are based on environmental impact, then your choices will be different from mine, or the market in general. But the market in general determines direction, absent government regulation.

 

[Calzone]

So which do you want, a well-made watch or a crap watch that keeps better time for less money?

TRUE STORY: Last month I took my four year old Rolex in to see about its value as a trade in, as the five year maintenance costs around $600.00. This Rolex has taken a beating. A cheaper watch of lesser quality I assure you would not be working today, but I was offered a hundred dollars more than I paid for the Rolex after wearing it for four years dispite all the wear and tear. The store was not interested in the box or the extra links from the braclet I had at home. I later learned that the going price on E-Bay is $100.00 for the box and $70.00 for each link.

Granted the dollar has tanked, but the replacement cost today for the same exact Rolex is now 64% higher. I could also sell my Rolex for $500.00-$600.00 more than I was offered on E-Bay as is because a new owner effectively gets a Rolex that is almost like new once the maintenance is done.

I ended up keeping my Rolex and buying another even more expensive watch.

**********

Leica faces the dilemma I said they'd face - high build quality, but it is still obsolete in relatively short order, unlike the equivalent film-body camera. So how now, Leica? Starting building a new model every six months, or tell consumers to be content with what they have for five to ten years, while Canon and Nikon digital SLR's continue to carve Leica's guts out?


I totally agree.


I disagree. My parents bought a Curtis-Mathis B&W television set back in the early 1960's. For all I know, it still works ('the most expensive television set in American, and darn well worth it' as they advertised it then). So what? I don't want to watch TV on an old, small, B&W set. I'd love to have a '55 Chevy, but I have no interest in a '55 B&W TV set or kitchen appliances or a 1955 washer and dryer.


The American Made RCA "cable ready" TV I bought in 1980 still works and is the only TV in the house. In February I'll be forced to replace it. In this case I'm just a cheap ******* who likes expensive watches and old cameras.

***************

But even the 1955 Chevy would kill me in a head-on collision; but you could hose it out and sell it to the next coffin-stuffer. A cheap-as-chips Korean compact car would crumple up as designed, protect me, and I might walk away. Enduring value? Yes, but I want ME to be the enduring value, not the car.

ANOTHER TRUE STORY:Had a head on collision with a 90's Caddy. The Caddy was doing 55mph on wet country road with no shoulder. I was doing thirty in a 1980 Checker Limo (yes like the cab). I walked away. The Caddy became about eighty feet of shreded plastic and torn metal and the driver was taken to the hospital after a scondary impact into maple trees. The Checker had a full frame, and the Caddy esscentially became my airbag.

AND ANOTHER: Also happened to t-bone a Hundai at about walking speed. That slow impact bent the car like a banana. A four-door Hundai instantly became a two-door Hundai. In most accidents the bigger/heavier car almost always wins, esspecially if it has a full frame. I was driving an 84 Jeep Scrambler. That 55 Chevy IMHO might do better in an accident than you think. Its just physics.

My point is that technology in flux changes what 'enduring value' means.

Great Point! I just hope film endures and I think it will.

Cal

 

[Pherdinand]

depends what it is, Roger.
If it has integrated circuitry, i would prefer non-handmade versions.
If it is a mechanical something, well, probably handmade is "better".

 

[visiondr]

Everyone has to decide for themselves what their values are surrounding purchasing decisions. But the market as a whole has chosen to value accurate, cheap, timepieces over well-made, expensive, mechanical wristwatches. And that would be why Casio makes them for the masses, and Omega makes mechanical watches at 10,000% more expense for those who value the latter.

If your choices are based on environmental impact, then your choices will be different from mine, or the market in general. But the market in general determines direction, absent government regulation.

I can't argue with anything here, Bill.
However, governments may begin to step in more than they do now to save us from ourselves.

Does anyone think that car makers back in the 70s (I think) were just "listening to the demands of the buying public" when they started making cars with reduced tail pipe emissions? Government imposed air quality standards and automobile emissions standards forced manufacturers to change for the good of all. In this case, the average consumer didn't have a choice to purchase a "cleaner" product. Sometimes government (I know some of you hate that word) has to step in and require minimum standards.

 

[bmattock]

I can't argue with anything here, Bill.
However, governments may begin to step in more than they do now to save us from ourselves.

Does anyone think that car makers back in the 70s (I think) were just "listening to the demands of the buying public" when they started making cars with reduced tail pipe emissions? Government imposed air quality standards and automobile emissions standards forced manufacturers to change for the good of all. In this case, the average consumer didn't have a choice to purchase a "cleaner" product. Sometimes government (I know some of you hate that word) has to step in and require minimum standards.

I accept that more than you might think. I have begun to re-examine some of my beliefs in recent years. I do accept that government has more of a role than I once thought it did or should have. I am slowly fitting the pieces of that into my core beliefs that a government governs best that governs least. It is a process.

 

[kevin m]

Does anyone think that car makers back in the 70s (I think) were just "listening to the demands of the buying public" when they started making cars with reduced tail pipe emissions? Government imposed air quality standards and automobile emissions standards forced manufacturers to change for the good of all. In this case, the average consumer didn't have a choice to purchase a "cleaner" product. Sometimes government (I know some of you hate that word) has to step in and require minimum standards.

Good points, all. The irony that the huge improvement we've seen in automobile performance came about because government regulations forced the industry to work harder is lost on most car enthusiasts.

A car like today's VW GTI, with a 2.0 turbo four, will flat smoke Burt Reynold's 70's-vintage, 7.0 liter V8 Trans-Am on the track and emits some twenty times less pollution while doing it. And we won't even mention gas mileage. 😀

Sometimes government (I know some of you hate that word) has to step in and require minimum standards.

It's an entirely proper role for government to play: setting the standards, enforcing the rules. No one on the court much likes the ref, but the game's a mess without him.

 

[visiondr]

My belief is that if people really understood all the costs of their purchasing decisions(including environmental and social), then they'd make better decisions for themselves and ultimately, everyone else. Some people will still choose to buy sweat shop produced, disposable, toxic crap. But, at least they'd understand some of the consequences of doing so. Today, we're so isolated from the harvesting of raw materials, the production, distribution and eventually the disposal of all our "crap" that we simply don't know what's going on. I wish every 5th grader in America were required to go on a school field trip to their local landfill. I bet it would open a lot of young eyes.

 

[bmattock]

My belief is that if people really understood all the costs of their purchasing decisions(including environmental and social), then they'd make better decisions for themselves and ultimately, everyone else. Some people will still choose to buy sweat shop produced, disposable, toxic crap. But, at least they'd understand some of the consequences of doing so. Today, we're so isolated from the harvesting of raw materials, the production, distribution and eventually the disposal of all our "crap" that we simply don't know what's going on. I wish every 5th grader in America were required to go on a school field trip to their local landfill. I bet it would open a lot of young eyes.

I'm hip. But then again, I have no problem shooting my food. I know where meat comes from, and I've been to an abattoir, I know how it dies. I'm still a meat-eater. Everyone has their bugaboos.

 

[visiondr]

Shooting one's own food is an entirely reasonable way to acquire meat. But, I bet you didn't bag that buck with a disposable rifle! 😉

 

[Roger Hicks]

depends what it is, Roger.
If it has integrated circuitry, i would prefer non-handmade versions.
If it is a mechanical something, well, probably handmade is "better".

We agree pretty much on that one -- though I do have electronic ignition in my 1972 Land Rover, 'hand installed' by me...

Cheers,

R.

 

[evergreen2253]

Quality reliability and durability

Quality reliability and durability

Modern electronic things such as cameras are better than they used to be - I remember the Canon Ion, & even the first, red led display digital watches. I have an old Casio with a 10 year life battery. The strap cost more to replace than the watch !

We're in a throwaway society, I collect old cameras because I love the feel and quality of them, but they can be troublesome, with so many moving parts. I think this issue has a lot to do with taste, and not a little money sometimes. I have a Leica CL with a broken lens. The repair is on hold, & Leica is an expensive hobby.

I have two prime lenses for my Konica Minolta Dynax 5D, both from the Minota 7000 era and working well.- at over 20 years old. I can see where you're coming from Roger & I share your tastes. Problem is I can't always afford em 🙂

 

[JoeV]

Good engineering is good engineering and good craftsmanship is good craftsmanship, regardless of our predelictions to the contrary.

Yesterday I was tinkering in my shop, and had need of a calculator. So I went and got my Hewlit Packard HP-21. It was given to me by an old friend, years ago, who is an engineer, after he "upgraded" to one of those fancy graphing calculators. Red LED display, reverse polish notation, carrying case, instruction manual, even. From the 1970s. The thing about these old HP's is that the buttons were engineered to function for more than 20 years. They had longevity built in to their design. The main problem with these calculators is the battery packs, where HP figured on making money by requiring their customers to buy a replacement pack. So I was able to open up the pack and replace the AA-sized NiCad cells. So I attached the carrying case to my belt, via the loop, and carried it around yesterday, in all its nerdy glory.

Another experience with electronic products: I recently purchased a Panasonic Lumix G1 digital camera; my first "new" camera purchase in 30 years. The new camera lasted 3 weeks, before I had to send it back for repair because of an intermittent problem with it reverting to B/W with noise lines in the picture. That's my reward for being an "early adapter" of a new product.

Luckily I have a plethora of old cameras to satisfy my shooting needs until the G1 comes back from repair. But it doesn't comfort me. I know, in general, electronic components have become more reliable over time; but designers are also demanding more out of them, too.

~Joe

 

[bmattock]

Good engineering is good engineering and good craftsmanship is good craftsmanship, regardless of our predelictions to the contrary.

Yesterday I was tinkering in my shop, and had need of a calculator. So I went and got my Hewlit Packard HP-21. It was given to me by an old friend, years ago, who is an engineer, after he "upgraded" to one of those fancy graphing calculators. Red LED display, reverse polish notation, carrying case, instruction manual, even. From the 1970s. The thing about these old HP's is that the buttons were engineered to function for more than 20 years. They had longevity built in to their design. The main problem with these calculators is the battery packs, where HP figured on making money by requiring their customers to buy a replacement pack. So I was able to open up the pack and replace the AA-sized NiCad cells. So I attached the carrying case to my belt, via the loop, and carried it around yesterday, in all its nerdy glory.

Another experience with electronic products: I recently purchased a Panasonic Lumix G1 digital camera; my first "new" camera purchase in 30 years. The new camera lasted 3 weeks, before I had to send it back for repair because of an intermittent problem with it reverting to B/W with noise lines in the picture. That's my reward for being an "early adapter" of a new product.

Luckily I have a plethora of old cameras to satisfy my shooting needs until the G1 comes back from repair. But it doesn't comfort me. I know, in general, electronic components have become more reliable over time; but designers are also demanding more out of them, too.

~Joe

My first digital camera, an Olympus D220L, still works fine. It has a 640K sensor, that's 640x480, not even a single megapixel. It works, but I don't care; I'll never use it again.

Building quality into items that are essentially worthless in 2 years tops does not make sense. It makes the items cost more, and the fact that they still work when useless adds no value.

Your calculator is worthwhile because math has not changed. But digital cameras are not even close to reaching maturity as a technology. It makes no sense to build digital cameras to Leica standards when they will be utterly and completely obsolete in a couple years.

And isn't it strange that only the 'I hate digital' crowd buys digital cameras that break straight away (and apparently, we are to believe that they ALL break immediately upon purchase). I've bought bunches of them, never had a problem. I'm just saying.