Sentimental M

VertovSvilova said:
Just curious, but specifically how is the M4-P more durable and reliable than the M4?
Click to expand...
  • beam splitter cemented using synthetic glue not canada balsam
  • frame line mask made from a thick piece of metal (vs. thin metal layered between glass plates)
  • steel gears, rugged enough to be used with motor/rapidwinder (also the original MP had steel gears for the same reason)
  • less adjustment points/parts for fine tuning and therefore less prone to go out of adjustments. The disadvantage is that once the parts start to wear and the wear exceeds a tolerable limit than replacement is mandatory.
 
kaiwasoyokaze said:
thanks for sharing pics of your beautiful country, i have to go back again sooner or later these days (especially loved yogyakarta...but jakarta...not so much.) 😉
Click to expand...
Thank you Sir, glad you enjoyed it. Yogyakarta is nice, the next time you're in Jakarta please feel free to contact me, I can take you to market for analog cameras. One RFF member from Australia did, and we had fun last Saturday:


​

maddoc said:
  • beam splitter cemented using synthetic glue not canada balsam
  • frame line mask made from a thick piece of metal (vs. thin metal layered between glass plates)
  • steel gears, rugged enough to be used with motor/rapidwinder (also the original MP had steel gears for the same reason)
  • less adjustment points/parts for fine tuning and therefore less prone to go out of adjustments. The disadvantage is that once the parts start to wear and the wear exceeds a tolerable limit than replacement is mandatory.
Click to expand...

Thank you Doc for informative and well balanced post on M4-P 😉
 
jwicaksana said:
Thank you Sir, glad you enjoyed it. Yogyakarta is nice, the next time you're in Jakarta please feel free to contact me, I can take you to market for analog cameras.Saturday
Click to expand...

that sounds great 😀 likewise if you are ever in the neighborhood of HK or Busan/Seoul (when I'm there on the off chance) there are some nice places for vintage camera hunting i could take you to!

unfortunately last time i only made it to Jalan Surabaya in Jakarta but it was a little disappointing...very touristy.

terima kasih
 
maddoc said:
  • beam splitter cemented using synthetic glue not canada balsam
  • frame line mask made from a thick piece of metal (vs. thin metal layered between glass plates)
  • steel gears, rugged enough to be used with motor/rapidwinder (also the original MP had steel gears for the same reason)
  • less adjustment points/parts for fine tuning and therefore less prone to go out of adjustments. The disadvantage is that once the parts start to wear and the wear exceeds a tolerable limit than replacement is mandatory.
Click to expand...

Apparently my 1970 built M4 has UV synthetic glue. Do you know when they switched? Also what does the frame line mask difference actually mean in the real world? (I had Don masked out all my frame lines except for the lenses I use.) Mine was just serviced by Don and that was its first service since I bought it. He said it was good for another 40 years, and also said the gears are in excellent shape. I've used a Leica M Motor on the M6 but sold it because of the shutter release button recoil bothered me, and so I'm personally not too concerned about stress on gears, etc.. But I imagine over a very long time and under stress, the steel gears would hold up longer.

I've never had issues with the M4 in all those years, and so I was just curious as to why the M4-P is that much more "reliable and better" than the M4. The only thing that I have noticed when using the M4-P over the M4 is that the M4-P finder can flare a lot more easily. Otherwise they both seem equally excellent cameras.
 
VertovSvilova said:
Apparently my 1970 built M4 has UV synthetic glue. Do you know when they switched? Also what does the frame line mask difference actually mean in the real world? (I had Don masked out all my frame lines except for the lenses I use.) Mine was just serviced by Don and that was its first service since I bought it. He said it was good for another 40 years, and also said the gears are in excellent shape. I've used a Leica M Motor on the M6 but sold it because of the shutter release button recoil bothered me, and so I'm personally not too concerned about stress on gears, etc.. But I imagine over a very long time and under stress, the steel gears would hold up longer.

I've never had issues with the M4 in all those years, and so I was just curious as to why the M4-P is that much more "reliable and better" than the M4. The only thing that I have noticed when using the M4-P over the M4 is that the M4-P finder can flare a lot more easily. Otherwise they both seem equally excellent cameras.
Click to expand...

I don`t know when they switched but they also switched the design of the light baffle behind the eye-piece of the M4 to a barrel-shaped one (if memory serves me right). However, also the M5 had canada balsam to glue the frame line masks (a problem with many M5 cameras, where due to deterioration the frame lines become hardly visible) and beam-splitter.

The M4 is by no means a bad camera and considered by many as the pinnacle of Leica craftsmanship. However, due to the many possible adjustments and more prone to wear gears ("butter-smooth film winding") also a more delicate camera than the later M4-2 / M4-P.

So "better" might be a wrong term, more durable or rugged describes it perhaps in a better way.
 
jwicaksana said:
Thank you Sir, glad you enjoyed it. Yogyakarta is nice, the next time you're in Jakarta please feel free to contact me, I can take you to market for analog cameras. One RFF member from Australia did, and we had fun last Saturday:


​



Thank you Doc for informative and well balanced post on M4-P 😉
Click to expand...

ok .. I have this photo in my facebook 🙂

so you must be one of my friends ? hehehe


great info Maddoc

hmm now since i own m4-p and m5 .. hmm i wonder in 10 years from now ... 10-20 rolls/ per month
i wonder ....

Sincerely
William Jusuf
 
maddoc said:
I don`t know when they switched but they also switched the design of the light baffle behind the eye-piece of the M4 to a barrel-shaped one (if memory serves me right). However, also the M5 had canada balsam to glue the frame line masks (a problem with many M5 cameras, where due to deterioration the frame lines become hardly visible) and beam-splitter.

The M4 is by no means a bad camera and considered by many as the pinnacle of Leica craftsmanship. However, due to the many possible adjustments and more prone to wear gears ("butter-smooth film winding") also a more delicate camera than the later M4-2 / M4-P.

So "better" might be a wrong term, more durable or rugged describes it perhaps in a better way.
Click to expand...


Thanks for the reply. Apparently the M4 frame line masks were also changed in the later builds:

"The later M4 cameras overcame this problem by manufacturing the frame mask from aluminum of a similar thickness but with the frame lines and RF aperture cut out of the metal so that there is no optical or glass component between the projected secondary image and the beam-splitter."


 
kaiwasoyokaze said:
that sounds great 😀 likewise if you are ever in the neighborhood of HK or Busan/Seoul (when I'm there on the off chance) there are some nice places for vintage camera hunting i could take you to!

unfortunately last time i only made it to Jalan Surabaya in Jakarta but it was a little disappointing...very touristy.

terima kasih
Click to expand...

Hong Kong does seem to have a lot of Leica, would be very nice to have a look. Thanks for the offer! 🙂
Jalan Surabaya is very touristy and mostly geared towards antiques and not cameras. Check out that row of Nikon F on the top shelf behind me, I am fairly sure you will not be disappointed. 😀
 
kaiwasoyokaze said:
that sounds great 😀 likewise if you are ever in the neighborhood of HK or Busan/Seoul (when I'm there on the off chance) there are some nice places for vintage camera hunting i could take you to!

unfortunately last time i only made it to Jalan Surabaya in Jakarta but it was a little disappointing...very touristy.

terima kasih
Click to expand...



I was thinking of tripping down to Busan in the next month or two for a quicky 1-2 night trip. What's your schedule like? Would be nice to meet up with someone familiar with the place (I've been there two-three times in my 5 years here, but the friend I visited last time has since moved to Australia 😕).
 
maddoc said:
I don`t know when they switched but they also switched the design of the light baffle behind the eye-piece of the M4 to a barrel-shaped one (if memory serves me right). However, also the M5 had canada balsam to glue the frame line masks (a problem with many M5 cameras, where due to deterioration the frame lines become hardly visible) and beam-splitter.

The M4 is by no means a bad camera and considered by many as the pinnacle of Leica craftsmanship. However, due to the many possible adjustments and more prone to wear gears ("butter-smooth film winding") also a more delicate camera than the later M4-2 / M4-P.

So "better" might be a wrong term, more durable or rugged describes it perhaps in a better way.
Click to expand...

Again, just curious but why the MP-4 over the M6 classic? Wouldn't it be best just to get the M6? If you take out the battery then it becomes the same: a meter less mechanical camera. I don't see anything in the build that is otherwise different (except for Canada versus Wetzlar/Solms and that the earlier M4-Ps had brass top and bottom plates; is there anything else that makes them truly any different?)

With both the M4-P and M6 you lose the self-timer on the M4 and you get the flare prone finder, too. And you get the extra frame lines. But with both the M4-P and M6 you can mask out unwanted frame lines and also add the condensers to the finder for the 'patch flare upgrade' (which were removed after the M4 for cost efficiency.) At least you can with the M6 and I assume it's the same with the M4-P (?)

The M4 is the last of the traditionally built Wetzlar cameras. So after that, you get the 'modern' built M. Some argue that the M4-2 and M4-P was 'cheapened' but they wouldn't be any more so than a later M6. I'd probably go with the M6 as a 'modern' equivalent instead of the M4-P, personally. They seem to both be the same camera other than the meter. I'm not that excited with the appearance of the 'everyday' M4-P but that one which jwicaksana posted as the opener for this thread looks pretty nice!

I inherited my M4 and before I owned it, it was used by a well known photographer in NY. It's still in great condition and works fine. But I picked up the M6 classic later on just to have a newer and more 'modern' M. Both are a pleasure to use and I do often take out the battery from the M6 when I use both in tandem. That makes them pretty similar in function (with the shutter speed dial turning the same way on the M6 classic.) Plus I had the 'patch flare' modification done by DAG on the M6 along with masked frame lines to match my lenses and the M4 frame lines.

I don't think anyone can do 'wrong' with any film M model. As far as 'robustness' and 'reliability' none are going to be guaranteed, but I bet they outlast us (and film availability, too.) 🙂
 
Spicy said:
I was thinking of tripping down to Busan in the next month or two for a quicky 1-2 night trip. What's your schedule like? Would be nice to meet up with someone familiar with the place (I've been there two-three times in my 5 years here, but the friend I visited last time has since moved to Australia 😕).
Click to expand...

I had family in Busan but nowadays I find myself in Seoul more actually. It is refreshing though to check out the 2nd hand camera places in Nampo station. Their selection is more 'used' and 'abused' than what you would be used to going to Chungmuro (or even Namdaemun)

The bulk of the stores are in the main exit (across from Lotte department store) and in the underground mall connecting to the department store. there is also a small number of them within walking distance from Busan KTX station (near Russia/Chinatown)

For newer digital stuff check out Seomyeon (downtown) station.

jwicaksana said:
Hong Kong does seem to have a lot of Leica, would be very nice to have a look. Thanks for the offer! 🙂
Jalan Surabaya is very touristy and mostly geared towards antiques and not cameras. Check out that row of Nikon F on the top shelf behind me, I am fairly sure you will not be disappointed. 😀
Click to expand...


i think i will definitely take you up on that offer someday! 😀
 
The M6 has redesigned VF/RF assembly to facilitate meter readout via LEDs in the lower part of the VF. This design change caused the M6 VF to be slightly more prone to flare compared to the M4-P (I had two M6 classic, three M4-P, one M4-2, three M4 so know the differences a little from experience). Another difference is the size of the frame-lines, optimized for closer focal distances in the latest M4-P and M6 (and later M cameras). Finally, later M6 don`t have the "key" in the base-plate to open IXMOO film canisters, a feature I would really miss. Finally, the zinc-cast top-plate of the M6 was obviously not without problems, many top-plates of M6 series cameras show signs of pit-corrosion, rather ugly, IMO.

VertovSvilova said:
Again, just curious but why the MP-4 over the M6 classic? Wouldn't it be best just to get the M6? If you take out the battery then it becomes the same: a meter less mechanical camera. I don't see anything in the build that is otherwise different (except for Canada versus Wetzlar/Solms and that the earlier M4-Ps had brass top and bottom plates; is there anything else that makes them truly any different?)

With both the M4-P and M6 you lose the self-timer on the M4 and you get the flare prone finder, too. And you get the extra frame lines. But with both the M4-P and M6 you can mask out unwanted frame lines and also add the condensers to the finder for the 'patch flare upgrade' (which were removed after the M4 for cost efficiency.) At least you can with the M6 and I assume it's the same with the M4-P (?)

The M4 is the last of the traditionally built Wetzlar cameras. So after that, you get the 'modern' built M. Some argue that the M4-2 and M4-P was 'cheapened' but they wouldn't be any more so than a later M6. I'd probably go with the M6 as a 'modern' equivalent instead of the M4-P, personally. They seem to both be the same camera other than the meter. I'm not that excited with the appearance of the 'everyday' M4-P but that one which jwicaksana posted as the opener for this thread looks pretty nice!

I inherited my M4 and before I owned it, it was used by a well known photographer in NY. It's still in great condition and works fine. But I picked up the M6 classic later on just to have a newer and more 'modern' M. Both are a pleasure to use and I do often take out the battery from the M6 when I use both in tandem. That makes them pretty similar in function (with the shutter speed dial turning the same way on the M6 classic.) Plus I had the 'patch flare' modification done by DAG on the M6 along with masked frame lines to match my lenses and the M4 frame lines.

I don't think anyone can do 'wrong' with any film M model. As far as 'robustness' and 'reliability' none are going to be guaranteed, but I bet they outlast us (and film availability, too.) 🙂
Click to expand...
 
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