the joy of photography

gb hill said:
(...) at one point the forum almost died. Much like the Bessa forum is now. Not many of us seem to be using Bessa's any more. (...)
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Hmm. I want a Bessa R4a now that I have gotten a Ricoh GR 28/2.8 lens (cheaply off eB*y) -- it will be my third Bessa (after my R3a and my L. Although I also would consider a Leica with 0.58 viewfinder if it wasn't two or more times as expensive used as a Bessa R4x new.)

That I don't make any racket on the Bessa forum only means I'm completely satisfied with the little things! :)
 
wgerrard said:
Agreed, and that applies to threads about any and all topics. It is possible to discuss the most sensitive of subjects without resorting to insult and ad hominem attacks. I'm just sorry that the anonymity and cover offered by the internet seems to make that a rare occurrence. For example, I frequent a local blog that is, by and large, a reasonably civil place. But, one or two commenters invariably respond to questions or disagreement with personal insults and attacks. This sends the thread off the cliff because, try as we might, it is very difficult for most of us to ignore venomous attacks.

Things are not that bad here, by a long shot. But, I have seen comments clearly written as innocuous expressions of fact or personal preference, including my own, draw nasty attack responses from people who apparently cannot tolerate someone who doesn't see things exactly like they do. Why someone who, in effect, likes vanilla ice cream feels the need to skewer someone who says he likes chocolate ice cream is a mystery.

As for threads that go off track, does the site's software give mods the ability to move threads to other forums?
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Yes, but here's a scenario:

"Should I buy a vanilla ice-cream?"

Seven replies from lovers of vanilla ice-cream: "Yes, it's wonderful, it's perfect, buy it immediately."

One reply, "Hard to say. Doesn't suit everyone. I've always preferred chocolate. An advantage of chocolate is..."

(At this point of course the analogy breaks down because you don't have issues like reliability, reparability, cost, ease of focusing, and the fact that it might have been amateurishly repaired in the last 50 years. But...)

One of the vanilla fanatics starts screaming insults at the chocolate lover, accusing him of snobbism, elitism, reverse snobbism, racism and being a complete f***wit... As you say, "I have seen comments clearly written as innocuous expressions of fact or personal preference, including my own, draw nasty attack responses from people who apparently cannot tolerate someone who doesn't see things exactly like they do."

Cheers,

R.
 
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Roger Hicks said:
Yes, but here's a scenario:

"Should I buy a vanilla ice-cream?"

Seven replies from lovers of vanilla ice-cream: "Yes, it's wonderful, it's perfect, buy it immediately."

One reply, "Hard to say. Doesn't suit everyone. I've always preferred chocolate. An advantage of chocolate is..."

(At this point of course the analogy breaks down because you don't have issues like reliability, reparability, cost, ease of focusing, and the fact that it might have been amateurishly repaired in the last 50 years. But...)

One of the vanilla fanatics starts screaming insults at the chocolate lover, accusing him of snobbism, elitism, reverse snobbism, racism and being a complete f***wit...

Cheers,

R.
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Well, that certainly happens too often around here. Why remains a mystery, at least to me. Anyone who consistently behaved that way in the flesh would need to go around accompanied by lawyers and bodyguards.

When they go on the net, many people, I'm convinced, do shed the social inhibitions that lubricate civil society. It's an interesting topic for a doctoral dissertation, and more than a few must already exist.

In real life. most of our discussions about sensitive or partisan subjects are with friends and family. I.e., people we probably do not want to alienate. So, we measure our words and hold our tongues. It's different on the net.
 
wgerrard said:
Well, that certainly happens too often around here. Why remains a mystery, at least to me. Anyone who consistently behaved that way in the flesh would need to go around accompanied by lawyers and bodyguards.

When they go on the net, many people, I'm convinced, do shed the social inhibitions that lubricate civil society. It's an interesting topic for a doctoral dissertation, and more than a few must already exist.

In real life. most of our discussions about sensitive or partisan subjects are with friends and family. I.e., people we probably do not want to alienate. So, we measure our words and hold our tongues. It's different on the net.
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Dear Bill,

I'm not entirely sure about that. Frances and I once spent a very interesting hour or two discussing religion with a devout Muslim in Brick Lane; we'd gone into his shop to buy some fabric. Quite often, I'd suggest, an intriguing (and possibly even quite heated) argument is the start of a friendship.

And my dear old great grandmother was a Party member from 1917 to the day she died: discussing politics with her (or her daughters, the Political Aunts, who were on the left of the Labour Party) never seemed to involve much mincing of words. For that matter, my father once called me a Stalinist for suggesting that closing shops on Sundays might be a good idea. As I joined the Liberal Party in 1966 this seemed odd to me.

There is, therefore, a tradition of robust argument and even occasionally of slight exaggeration in my family, which may be why I have a problem with people who take everything personally.

Of course there are going to be a few arseholes in any big gathering of people, especially a virtual one like RFF. Anyone who denies that is out of touch with reality. But as different people have dfferent definitions of arseholes, we have an ignore function.

The big difference is that if you don't like someone in real life, you can always walk away. On the 'net, there is likely to be a lot of sniping afterwards, often gratuitously in threads unrelated to the one in which the original falling-out took place. I've been guilty of it myself, but I think I'm getting better at simply ignoring people who are not in my view worth arguing with. And they can do the same to me.

Cheers,

R.
 
Gumby said:
Testing: one, two, three; Testing. :D
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Dear Ed,

No, you've been off the ignore list for a long time. It's normally just a couple of people, very occasionally three. It's better for my peace of mind and (I hope) for theirs too: an excellent opportunity for both sides to cool down.

Cheers,

R.
 
Great Thread Topic, Joe

the Moment of Bliss ... Shooting
when my Mind is Finally Quiet
lost in the Moment, The Light, The Atmosphere
there are Few things as Good as the 'Click' of Capturing 'The Moment'

Photography Rules
so Does FILM though this might start another kicking a dead horse debate ;)...:D

as for those that love to argue in an Ugly way here...
miserable sods
and their Life & Photography probably reflect it...:eek:
 
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Tompas said:
Hmm. I want a Bessa R4a now that I have gotten a Ricoh GR 28/2.8 lens (cheaply off eB*y) -- it will be my third Bessa (after my R3a and my L. Although I also would consider a Leica with 0.58 viewfinder if it wasn't two or more times as expensive used as a Bessa R4x new.)

That I don't make any racket on the Bessa forum only means I'm completely satisfied with the little things! :)
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If I could afford an R4a I would buy one in a moment! I love the Bessa line of cameras. I guess I'm as guilty as anyone for not posting. When I first came here, compared to now, the Bessa threads were quite active. I just finished up a roll of Ektar 100 in the Bessa & now have a roll of Fuji Reala 100. I hope to compare the two films. I guess I'm hoping out of all this discussion is that we can respect one another a bit more & share in the enjoyment of one anothers photography.
 
Roger Hicks said:
Dear Bill,

I'm not entirely sure about that. Frances and I once spent a very interesting hour or two discussing religion with a devout Muslim in Brick Lane; we'd gone into his shop to buy some fabric. Quite often, I'd suggest, an intriguing (and possibly even quite heated) argument is the start of a friendship.
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More than fair enough, Roger. I spent a few years in Jordan and had a number of lengthy late night discussions abut religion and politics with devout, not so devout, and really undevout Muslims. (The latter being the guys who would buy a round and then deny it the next morning.) I learned a great deal. I regret it seems so difficult to make that happen on the net.

That said, some people just don't like controversy or intense debate. I have relatives that will just leave the room if two of us start to get into something. Might be because they've heard it umpteen times before, though. ;)
 
You guys are assuming that the person you are conversing with is not arguing just to make you mad. There is a difference: you cannot win an argument, and the other person has no interest in being your friend. They simply tally points for hurling insults and pissing you off.
 
helenhill said:
the Moment of Bliss ... Shooting
when my Mind is Finally Quiet
lost in the Moment, The Light, The Atmosphere
there are Few things as Good as the 'Click' of Capturing 'The Moment'
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For me, it is just a one-to-one interaction with the world. Each image is like a soft kiss on a cheek.

And this is one reason an internet forum and photography are not the same thing. All you can really talk about are the technical aspects of the craft. The important stuff is in the picture (or it is not). Critiquing a picture is like complaining about the weather.
 
There's currently a conference being held in Melbourne discussing 'cyber bullying' which is now seen as a major problem on the internet. Apparently in the US repeat offenders have been tracked through IP adresses and prosecuted! :eek:

Probably a bit of overkill but it does bring it home that it's seen as a worldwide problem by the authorities!

So when you're sitting at your keyboard calling someone else on the other side of the world names that would make a truck driver blush ... that tap on the door may not turn out to be who you thought it was!
 
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I find it kind of odd that we spend so much time talking about those that like to drag us down. Especially when we understand how worthless their opinions really are.

I do feel sorry for them...
 
Don't get to down on yourself, this has always been a great forum. I miss some of the old regulars that you don't hear as much from, like Doug and Bill. Those were some of the guys that really helped me get my photography off the ground. Still there are plenty around like yourself and Brian that are a great help to everyone, and always have something useful to say without being rude.

Ever been to the photography section on reddit? This forum is 100x more useful and respectful than that place is, and I like reddit. For me this site will always be home though. It is my go to when I need to buy or sell gear, or ask an important question.

I have ONE complaint, and one complaint only about this forum; its too gear, process and policy minded. There isn't enough emphasis on the actual production of photos. It seems like members who post in the critique section practically have to beg to get any form of feed back, and even then, they are lucky to get a single response.
 
Creagerj said:
Don't get to down on yourself, this has always been a great forum. I miss some of the old regulars that you don't hear as much from, like Doug and Bill. Those were some of the guys that really helped me get my photography off the ground. Still there are plenty around like yourself and Brian that are a great help to everyone, and always have something useful to say without being rude.

Ever been to the photography section on reddit? This forum is 100x more useful and respectful than that place is, and I like reddit. For me this site will always be home though. It is my go to when I need to buy or sell gear, or ask an important question.

I have ONE complaint, and one complaint only about this forum; its too gear, process and policy minded. There isn't enough emphasis on the actual production of photos. It seems like members who post in the critique section practically have to beg to get any form of feed back, and even then, they are lucky to get a single response.
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That's very true ... if you're looking for somewhere quiet to hide where no one will bother you ... try the critiquing forum! :D

Actually I do recall a new member posting an excellent landscape in that forum and being told by someone fresh from charm school that it was barely biscuit tin quality or something similar!

That particular idiot continued that approach with fellow members until he was eventually banned from memory!
 
I'm not sure how useful critiquing others' photographs is, or how helpful unknown others' opinions are on my photos. I am not active there because of this. All I can say is that I like it or I don't, but how can one criticise the vision of someone else? Suggesting changes would only lead someone away from their vision and towards mine.
 
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FrankS said:
I'm not sure how useful critiquing others' photographs is, or how helpful unknown others' opinions are on my photos. I am not active there because of this. All I can say is that I like it or I don't, but how can one criticise the vision of someone else? Suggesting changes would only lead someone away from their vision and towards mine.
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What he said.
 
Brian: You're right, of course. A lot of people take some perverse pleasure in insulting people and getting away with it, as if someone was keeping score. On the local blog I mentioned, one bully doesn't deny he insults people, arguing that they deserve it.

Keith: There's at least one cyberbullying case here in the states that revolves around an adolescent who committed suicide after extended bullying online.
 
I think it was good of Joe to begin this thread and bring the topic of negativity at RFF into the light to discuss.
 
wgerrard said:
Brian: You're right, of course. A lot of people take some perverse pleasure in insulting people and getting away with it, as if someone was keeping score. On the local blog I mentioned, one bully doesn't deny he insults people, arguing that they deserve it.

Keith: There's at least one cyberbullying case here in the states that revolves around an adolescent who committed suicide after extended bullying online.
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I heard about that very sad case during the radio program that was discussing the conference in Melbourne.

Love it or hate it the internet and cyber comminication in general play a huge part in our social structure and as we have needed to regulate and moderate our behaviour towards each other face to face on a daily basis, we now need to do the same via the net or it will just get uglier and uglier!
 
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