The next digital M: When?

[rluka]

Okay, that may be taking the argument ad absurdum, but once you start making statements about "old" and "new" technology and what should and should not be used in current and future products, based solely on there being "a newer technology", just ends up always going that way.

With haggling logic, then it should be cheaper 😀
Old generation product are usually cheaper, unless we start get into the "rare item" kind

Well, it would come, someday. Isn't that the question ?

 

[eleskin]

Someone will eventually do this

Someone will eventually do this

Seems like what you guy want is;

Take an M6, unclip the bottom.
Swing up and unclip the back. Set aside bottom and back in a safe place.
Take the digital back out of it's holder, clip it onto the camera and swing it down to the flim plane.
Clip on the replacement bottom that contains the power supply, card holder and related processor. It makes contact with the sensor back through a series of gold plated contacts. Of course this bottom will be a bit more bulky than the film bottom.

Shoot with the digital back until you get tired of the whole digital thing.

Reverse the process, put the film back and bottom back on.

(By the way, this digital back does not have a preview screen and so will never have a cracked or inoperative screen that Leica didn't stock enough spares for. )

This back would not even have to be made by Leica. Sony could make it probably, I don't know if it can be full frame or 15X22 reduced frame to manage cost and logistics of building it.

Leica will not, but as technology becomes more and more common as far as sensors, etc are concerned, someone will make a back like this. I would welcome it. I would prefer an LCD though. Imagine digitizing at reasonable cost, a Mamiya 7, a classic Rolleiflex, etc,,,,. It would really open things up. We all know how popular using old lenses has become with adapters on cameras like the A7, etc. Imagne having the same freedom of choice with cameras. We could pick and choose on a massive scale. Could you see some day a guy dressed up in a digital Graflex with a Zoot Suit? Retro.. Reminds me of the Sci Fi movies with really old cars with anti gravity packs , etc,,,. Cool world! I would love this!

 

[pmu]

Okay, that may be taking the argument ad absurdum,

Glad you noticed. All the details you mentioned did not fit to the point what I was making. Leather vs. plastic or f0,95 vs f2.8, has nothing got to do with what I meant. It's NOT about the features and the ideology of the product -- it is about how is the used ideology translated into the product.

What is the excuse of having a 2006 spec LCD in a 2012 camera? I mean, wouldn't _everyone_ prefer better screen vs. worse screen? I read couple of random MM reviews and both mentioned briefly that the LCD is not good. I always thought that Leica M philosophy is about having "deliberately very limited features, but with fantastic quality". At least it used to be in film era. Now it seems to be, "deliberately limited features married to some state of the art, and partly very outdated digital technology".

Good battery life or bad battery life: let's vote! Which one would you take?

 

[airfrogusmc]

^^
No Gus. I I don't mean auto DSLR features.
How about innovation like a camera that stays out of your way by not crashing for a battery removal like every Digital M I have used has done?
Or something really slick like offering at least 10 years of product support and then actually delivering at least 10 years of product support?

Leica set the bar high with their tradition of standing by their film M series all these years.
The only thing high about the Digital M tradition is the expectation of rabid RF devotees to line up wallets in hand.
Output can be wonderful ... sure. The disposable mentality especially at this price point is frankly just plain shameful.


What do they do with those traded in or M8's ?



How about creating a system with the RF optics and chassis that can affordably be updated as new tech develops down the road. Real innovation.
As a RF user I would invest in that future.

I remember when Leica M was more than double the cost of the top of the line Canon F-1 and Nikon F-3 and the argument then was I could almost buy a blad for what Leica costs. Now compared tp the top of the lines Canons and Nikons Leica M seems like the bargain. It's all to much $$$ but is what it is. Love digital, hate digital, it's here to stay. That doesn't mean that I don't think there is a place for film but the reality in my world and many others is I can either use the tools or get left behind. I went digital in Dec 05 becasue i started loosing clients. That is reality. If I still had my darkroom I would still be shooting film is some capacity but I don't and the MM was the first digital camera that I actually felt the same way about as I did when I bought my 500C/Ms in the mid 1980s. I don't need more than what the MM gives me now. It's great in low light. Has plenty of MPs and it gets out of my way when I work. Do I wish there was someway that Leica would continue to support the camera indefinitely sure but for now I am just going to use what I have until it dies and can't get repaired anymore. I am now well over 20K images and still going strong. That would include some of my strongest work to date. All 4 of my digital Canons were all in for some kind of repair by 20K. It sucks that this stuff costs so much and I wish it didn't but it is what it is and I am lucky enough to have my photography pay for it all.

 

[Michael Markey]

Good battery life or bad battery life: let's vote! Which one would you take?

I voted , bad battery life and bought two Sigma Merrills 😉

 

[jsrockit]

What is more innovative in their evolution of the M lens range than developing the only full frame RF body in almost the same size as the film M's ?

taking the almost out of the equation.

 

[Keith]

I voted , bad battery life and bought two Sigma Merrills 😉

LOL ........ 😛

 

[ian_watts]

What is the excuse of having a 2006 spec LCD in a 2012 camera?

I think the (reasonable) excuse is that these are the only off-the-shelf LCD screens available to Leica in that particular size. In any case, it really doesn't matter – the screen is perfectly fine for checking the histogram, basic composition and making menu based changes.

 

[uhoh7]

The M is heavier, and fatter...

I'd be a lot more impressed if they actually managed to maintain the size, if not the weight of the M6 and M7, yet still managed to stuff an FF sensor inside.

I agree on this point. I wish the M9 was smaller and lighter. That said they are nearly identical footprint to a Sony A7 with an SLR lens.

 

[airfrogusmc]

I think the (reasonable) excuse is that these are the only off-the-shelf LCD screens available to Leica in that particular size. In any case, it really doesn't matter – the screen is perfectly fine for checking the histogram, basic composition and making menu based changes.

Exactly. Thats all I use mine for.

 

[froyd]

I agree with those who have pointed out that an old digital camera can continue to be a great image taker after its replacement model is issued; however, comparisons with film cameras do not hold up.

Digital obsolesce, whether planned or not, follows a very different from obsolescence of classic film gear. Sure, I'm using a 50 years old camera as my daily shooter, and it works now pretty much as well as it worked when new. One day something might happen to it that will not be worth paying to repair, but the only other thing that would make the camera useless to me would be the disappearance of film and tools dedicated to the hybrid process.

This last threat is MUCH more pronounced for digital items. Anyone with Sony and Olympus cameras from the beginning of the century can tell you that while Memory Sticks and XD cards have become much less common and impossible to find in most brick and mortar stores. I have a Minolta Dimage camera that's been rendered useless by the disappearance of batteries that work with it. I have had a photo printer that I could only get to work with my Win 7 64 bit environment by jumping through several hoops. Same for a really good camcorder I own...still shoots excellent video, but I need to use XP to transfer it to my computer.

 

[pmu]

– the screen is perfectly fine for checking the histogram, basic composition and making menu based changes.

Exactly. Thats all I use mine for.

I agree, it's probably fine for that. I don't know how to explain my point... Let me try this way: if I look at Canon 1DX or Nikon D4s, top "press cameras" at the moment. The build, image quality, speed, features...etc., they are state of the art all the way, in and out (for press/speed use). I don't see 2004 af-systems, 2006 lcd screens. We still have not seen a digital m Leica where all used parts would be state of the art. Those Nikon and Canon top models are close to the price of Leica M or MM, but to me only the Leicas feel overpriced. And it's not because of the lack of modern features. If they would be 4-5K€, instead of 6-7K€, that would chance my opinion.

 

[Emile de Leon]

Leica's bean counters..
Right now as we speak..
Are trying to figure out a way..
to make.. a 10K body..
And..more 10K lenses..
As they already know..
People with 7K burning a hole in their pockets....
Have the extra 3K..
No problem..

 

[BillBingham2]

....... I have a Minolta Dimage camera that's been rendered useless by the disappearance of batteries that work with it. I have had a photo printer that I could only get to work with my Win 7 64 bit environment by jumping through several hoops. Same for a really good camcorder I own...still shoots excellent video, but I need to use XP to transfer it to my computer.

Look into VMWare and see about running XP in a virtual environment. Might work as a longer term solution. I have not done it but that's the way I would go.

Sadly you are right, no drivers, no compatibility.

Makes me wonder if there is a business of buying old driver code from companies, updating it to run either in a VM or with newer OS and selling it?

I still have my Epson Photo PC, I feel your pain.

B2

 

[pmu]

And does this completely obsolete and totally insufficient 2006 technology relict keep anyone using the MM from taking photos ? 😀.

Of course not, but it keeps me not considering buying an MM 😀 If I spend that amount of money into a digital camera, I want it to feel "perfect" at the moment of purchase. With the 7K€ price tag, there better be no "ok, this feature is not so good like in my XXXX camera 5 years ago, but I guess I can live with it" -feelings. No matter what brand or what style of camera it would be, I would not buy if I felt that way.

 

[icebear]

Everybody has his/her own preference of making a purchase decision.
Enjoy your 1Dx or D4s 😉.

 

[airfrogusmc]

I agree, it's probably fine for that. I don't know how to explain my point... Let me try this way: if I look at Canon 1DX or Nikon D4s, top "press cameras" at the moment. The build, image quality, speed, features...etc., they are state of the art all the way, in and out (for press/speed use). I don't see 2004 af-systems, 2006 lcd screens. We still have not seen a digital m Leica where all used parts would be state of the art. Those Nikon and Canon top models are close to the price of Leica M or MM, but to me only the Leicas feel overpriced. And it's not because of the lack of modern features. If they would be 4-5K€, instead of 6-7K€, that would chance my opinion.

Thats because you like the bells and whistles. I love the fact that there is no autofocus. The shutter dial is on top of the camera and the aperture is on the ring around the lens and the DoF scales are really useful. The fact it is so different from what you mentioned, from what the big two are producing, is the appeal for photographers like me that don't need or want that stuff on their cameras. It's a very different choice. If they (Leica) try and compete with that they will loose because it's not their customer base and shouldn't be.

 

[pmu]

Thats because you like the bells and whistles.

Oh lord... maybe I should stop explaining because the point seems to be lost completely 😀 But I will try one more time:

When the next digital M comes (maybe in 2015?), I hope it will have:

-image quality equal or better than other best full frame cameras of 2015 -- not equal or worse with cameras of 2010
-battery life equal or better than other best full frame cameras of 2015 -- not equal or worse with cameras of 2010
-LCD resolution (color accuracy, ease to see if the image is correctly focused) equal or better than other best full frame cameras of 2015 -- not equal or worse with cameras of 2010
-EVF resolution and image quality equal or better than other best full frame cameras of 2015 -- not equal or worse with cameras of 2010 (actually, I do not care for EVF at all)
-high ISO performance equal or better than other best full frame cameras of 2015 -- not equal or worse with cameras of 2010
-the ease and speed of browsing menus and other operations equal or better than other best full frame cameras of 2015 --
not equal or worse with cameras of 2010
-image writing speed equal or better than other best full frame cameras of 2015 -- not equal or worse with cameras of 2010
-WHATEVER else, equal or better than other best full frame cameras of 2015 --not equal or worse with cameras of 2010

If I could decide, Leica would make a camera with super high dynamic 25mpix monochrome sensor and ditch the LCD completely. Oh, and the battery would need to last at least week of intense shooting. Leica, please?
That's all, folks. :angel:

 

[YYV_146]

Oh lord... maybe I should stop explaining because the point seems to be lost completely 😀 But I will try one more time:

When the next digital M comes (maybe in 2015?), I hope it will have:

-image quality equal or better than other best full frame cameras of 2015 -- not equal or worse with cameras of 2010
-battery life equal or better than other best full frame cameras of 2015 -- not equal or worse with cameras of 2010
-LCD resolution (color accuracy, ease to see if the image is correctly focused) equal or better than other best full frame cameras of 2015 -- not equal or worse with cameras of 2010
-EVF resolution and image quality equal or better than other best full frame cameras of 2015 -- not equal or worse with cameras of 2010 (actually, I do not care for EVF at all)
-high ISO performance equal or better than other best full frame cameras of 2015 -- not equal or worse with cameras of 2010
-the ease and speed of browsing menus and other operations equal or better than other best full frame cameras of 2015 --
not equal or worse with cameras of 2010
-image writing speed equal or better than other best full frame cameras of 2015 -- not equal or worse with cameras of 2010
-WHATEVER else, equal or better than other best full frame cameras of 2015 --not equal or worse with cameras of 2010

That's all, folks. :angel:

And sadly, that's probably not going to happen. CMOSIS is far, far too small to be at the forefront of sensor development. Look at Canon, they have, more or less, hundreds of times the market share of Leica, yet their sensor have never actually been "state-of-the-art" since 2007-2008.

But you are right in that Leica needs to step up its game. If Leica doesn't offer an EVF or a rear screen, fine with me - but if they do, I'd expect it to be an excellent one, with good color, resolution and refresh rates. If the camera has a good burst, I'd also expect a deep buffer and decent write speeds.

 

[CrisR]

All the details you mentioned did not fit to the point what I was making.

What is the excuse of having a 2006 spec LCD in a 2012 camera? I mean, wouldn't _everyone_ prefer better screen vs. worse screen?

Ah, so there's what it comes down you. YOU wanted a better screen in YOUR camera. I'm pretty sure i covered that concept of picking and choosing technologies in isolation?

Who wouldn't? Me. The screen has never been a concern of mine, I find it fit for purpose and hardly use it. I wouldn't mind it being 1/4 of the size to take up less space/weight, purely to check it wrote the file fine.

But then I'm not the designer, and I am not privy to all the requirements for the product. Nor are you.

Really odd this... but.. hmm.. I actually seem to operate my M2 and R8, without a screen of any kind? Perhaps I dreamt that...