These new digital cameras are complex

[giellaleafapmu]

That seems to be Leica's business model.

Not sure, Leica developed AF before many other brands and then believed a photographer doesn't need it, had reflex in the form of Visoflex then decided that more permanent Reflex system was not necessary and waited too long before launching their "real" reflex System, they even had high definition digital cameras (S1) when nobody was using them. It seems to me that we are paying a lot of bad marketing decision plus the development they did but didn't get any money from. Also, they have decided (or, well, maybe buyers have decided) that it is more important to preserve back compatibility and the classical superexpensive RF system instead of giving up something there and investing on other functions in the way for instance Fuji did.

Marketing decision, in my opinion the wrong ones, but I guess most of you would disagree on this point.

GLF

 

[panerai]

To get the most out of it. Pays to read the manual. I've read the one for my Panasonic 3 times and also went to the manufactures site which also listed various upgraded functions.

Still don't use half of what the camera can do

I did set 3 custom modes that I can click on when needed, one everyday standard mode or I can just use AE mode when needed

Just look through the manual and play with the camera along with the instructions

DON

 

[Duane Pandorf]

This subject is one of the reasons I went to Leica. First off I like the M mount lens options especially those made by Leica.

As my Ricoh GXR began to show its wear and as I looked at the other camera options that would mount Leica glass I saw only one camera maker that kept things simple, Leica.

Sony NEX - Menu Horror
Fuji - RAW image processing and Menu Horror

My Leica M-E has 27 menu items in one Menu Tree. I have a dedicated ISO button. And another dedicated Info button.

The camera has 4 user profiles that I use to configure two of my lenses that aren't 6 bit coded to capture the lens Exif data.

And the easiest Manual White Balance setting I've seen.

Oh and the English version of the manual is 87 pages long which includes the TOC, Specs.
That's it.

 

[Jamie Pillers]

I've just recently brought myself upto date with digital cameras, having bought both a Fuji XF1 (pocket/party/zoom) and a X100s.

Before that my only digital cameras have been an M8 and a D70 plus a pocket Lumix. I've been using mostly film cameras and went back into digital largely for the iso flexibility, plus the fact that my life seems a lot busier now than before and I don't have as much luxury of time to develop and scan and post-process my films (fine for serious subjects but a bit of a hassle for less formal work).

But, oh, my, these cameras are complex. I've read the user manual through a few times but there are so many menus and options and buttons that do different things if you press them in a different sequence. Fortunatley both Fuji's have similar menus, but at a garden party this past weekend (seems strange to be using that phrase at last given the long, long winter we've had) I found myself resorting to fully auto P on the X100s as I couldn't recall the menu and didn't have time to fiddle around with the settings for each shot.

How long does it take to really get the hang of these things?

I HIGHLY recommend this book: "Mastering the Fujifilm X-Pro1" by Rico Pfirstinger, published by RockyNook. FAR more useful than the Fuji manual.

 

[Roger Hicks]

It all depends on the kind of functions we are talking about. You can safely take away, say, the P mode, all "landscape", "portrait" and so on modes and stuff like "red eyes reduction" but AF, IS, flash sync, how many frames/sec the camera is capable of, whether or not it supports tethering (did I forget anything?) should be there if you need that kind of stuff as experience and knowledge doesn't create such functions

All the knowledge in the world don't make your fingers faster (and age doesn't help), if you are shooting fast stuff you have a clear advantage if the camera focuses fast, follows moving objects staying in focus, shot some 10fps, if you don't then of course you don't need that stuff but it is not something like "if you know a lot that will come by itself". Sure, Leni Riefenstahl was shooting sport with screw mount Leicas but you cannot compare her results with the stuff people ask today to a sport photographer.

Flash is the same, you can of course use a few flashbulbs connected with cables to that same screw mount camera but a few modern units attached via a Pocket Wizard or whatever you have at hand are actually quite a bit more comfortable.

Now one might argue that since most of us don't need a lot of functions most of the time it would be nice to have cameras without them and not having to pay for the development of the technology but I guess that probably cameras without the functions would have a much smaller market and would therefore be also more expensive. Of course there are exceptions such as the Foeveon Sigmas but it is difficult to imagine the market of that cameras supporting Sigma alone.

We have more than we need and are free of not using it, what's better?

GLF

I can, actually. Are modern AF sport pics better than hers? I doubt it. Different, maybe. Better? Not really. The same is true of ALL sports photography, not just Leni's. Of course it varies with the sport, but a lot of the best boxing shots of all time were taken with 4x5 inch; a surprising number of the best yachting pics on half plate.

Cheers,

R.

 

[dabick42]

Any image capture device that needs an instruction manual the thickness of Tolstoy's 'War and Peace' to enable the user to understand and apply all of its functions and capabilities is no longer a camera - it is a computer !

I often think that photography today, as with much else in modern life, is awash with unnecessary technological complexity, but then I reflect that camera designers and manufacturers are only providing what the buyers of new cameras think they absolutely must have because clever marketing people have convinced them that they need it.

I salute the awesome power of advertising... (!)

 

[ornate_wrasse]

How long does it take to really get the hang of these things?

I know exactly what you mean. When I first got my D70S (my very first digital camera with menus), I wouldn't go near it for the first year I owned it, it seemed much too complex for me to use. I used to say "You need a college degree to be able to operate the camera". But the thing that got me to change my mind about using it was taking classes from Nikonians about how to use my then new D70S. I also bought a book about how to use it. The book was well written and much easier to use than reading the manual.

Even today, with my D300, I use just a few of the features the camera offers. Time and time again, the two books I've bought are my go-to reference when I forget how to use a feature (which happens fairly often).

The other posts in this thread have given you excellent advice on limiting your use to just a few of the camera's many features.

Know that you are not alone in feeling overwhelmed by all the options in the menus.

Ellen

 

[user237428934]

Any image capture device that needs an instruction manual the thickness of Tolstoy's 'War and Peace' to enable the user to understand and apply all of its functions and capabilities is no longer a camera - it is a computer !

No one needs a manual for a computer. So what's your point?

 

[Roger Hicks]

No one needs a manual for a computer. So what's your point?

Well... there's always the software. A computer ain't much use without software. And software compilers are often (or often seem to be) semi-literate teenage nerds who are utterly unfamiliar with the last 50 years of human history, let alone the last 5000.

Cheers,

R.

 

[dabick42]

@ tom.w.bn ----

...''No one needs a manual for a computer.''...

So you needed no instruction manual when you were confronted with a computer for the first time ?

You must be one smart cookie....

 

[user237428934]

Well... there's always the software. A computer ain't much use without software. And software compilers are often (or often seem to be) semi-literate teenage nerds who are utterly unfamiliar with the last 50 years of human history, let alone the last 5000.

Cheers,

R.

You're right. Let's take a word processor software. Everyone who is not completely computer-illiterate can start a word processor, write a basic letter with basic formatting and print it without reading the manual. It should be the same with cameras for the basic stuff.

 

[user237428934]

@ tom.w.bn ----

...''No one needs a manual for a computer.''...

So you needed no instruction manual when you were confronted with a computer for the first time ?

You must be one smart cookie....

I think the TO knows exactly how to operate classic or non-digital cameras. The step from older camera to digital camera is far easier than the step from typewriter to word processor.

 

[giellaleafapmu]

I can, actually. Are modern AF sport pics better than hers? I doubt it. Different, maybe. Better? Not really. The same is true of ALL sports photography, not just Leni's. Of course it varies with the sport, but a lot of the best boxing shots of all time were taken with 4x5 inch; a surprising number of the best yachting pics on half plate.

Cheers,

R.

The question is not whether Leni's pictures with a Leica are better than yours with a D4 but rather whether yours with a screw mount are better than yours with a D4, if this is the case you should definitively use a screw mount (and an assistant changing the rolls) but most of us think that this is not the case (at least not for sports) and cannot afford a three bodies two assistant set up that's why monster such as the D4 are in production. I see no point in blaming the companies for that. Nikon and Canon didn't forbid the use of old cameras after all... If really digital cameras are too difficult instead of the rants one can simply avoid them.

GLF

 

[GaryLH]

If I remember correctly the default factory setting of fn is already iso... For both x100 and xp/xe series. One does not need to read a manual just to get going if that is the case, since the UI is pretty much standard 70/80s setup.. Aperture ring, shutter speed and exposure compensation dial.. Set the A on aperture ring for aperture priority or A on shutter dial for shutter priority. A on both for program.

But yes.. Modern digital cameras can have very complex menus. Part of it is to put in features to attract us (the consumer herd). Most are nothing more than what my industry "call check box item" (not really useful, but if my competitor had it, I better). However some are extremely useful features that came along w/ the digital cameras of today..

I tend to try to get used to the basic operations of a camera before I start worrying about what the menu has..

Gary

 

[ZeissFan]

Why? What is all this 'power and flexibility' that can't be duplicated (or improved upon) by a photographer who understands the basics of shutter speed, aperture, ISO and focus?

Cheers,

R.

You can do white balance for specific lighting, change the ISO, RAW, RAW + JPG, etc. And for older lenses, you need to set the focal length.

I would say that 99% of the time, I just turn it to "P" and shoot JPGs.

Manually changing the aperture and shutter speeds is a royal pain, and the same goes for the early days of presetting distance.

And this is why I primarily shoot film. Real aperture and shutter speed dials. I do give up a few things, but I don't mind.

 

[gavinlg]

If I remember correctly the default factory setting of fn is already iso... For both x100 and xp/xe series. One does not need to read a manual just to get going if that is the case, since the UI is pretty much standard 70/80s setup.. Aperture ring, shutter speed and exposure compensation dial.. Set the A on aperture ring for aperture priority or A on shutter dial for shutter priority. A on both for program.

Exactly. What's wrong with you guys that you can use a manual camera like a leica, but you can't use exactly the same control layout on an x100/xe-1?

 

[noisycheese]

A couple of years ago, the photographers at work got the then-new Nikon D700. The all-English owner's manual was 270 pages.

Digital cameras offer a lot of power and flexibility, and to fully take advantage of that, you really should understand its various menus, buttons and button combos. On the other hand, it's all too easy to forget that knowledge.

I picked up my Pentax K10D the other day and couldn't remember how to override one of its autofunctions. After a while, I gave up.

Maybe we should be taking bets on which camera company is going to be the first to market a DSLR with a manual that comes as a two volume set. 🙄

 

[css9450]

Why not just use them like a normal manual camera? They have a manual shutter speed dial, aperture ring, and assign ISO to the Fn button. Turn the playback review off, turn the view mode to lcd off. You literally never have to go into a menu. Problem solved.

I agree. My DSLRs are essentially just a Nikon N90S that doesn't require periodic loading of film. Even the manuals are not terribly different despite the difference in decades.

The real learning curve for me was post-processing.

In all fairness, though, I've seen some pretty bad camera manuals. My parents are retired and bought themselves a Kodak P&S digital a few years ago. Even I thought the manual was vague, contradictory, and downright confusing. It was awful.

 

[Jamie Pillers]

Exactly. What's wrong with you guys that you can use a manual camera like a leica, but you can't use exactly the same control layout on an x100/xe-1?

I agree. I try, as often as I can, to set up my XPro1 to behave exactly like a meterless M body. Its a lot of fun using it that way. And I find that my exposures are usually more interesting when I'm using 'sunny 16' or a hand-held meter. Let's hear it for "old school"! 🙂

 

[Flood]

Any image capture device that needs an instruction manual the thickness of Tolstoy's 'War and Peace' to enable the user to understand and apply all of its functions and capabilities is no longer a camera - it is a computer !

Everything around us is a computer. The last time my clothes washer was broken, the repair guy opened a case containing a laptop. Then he opened a hidden flap on the machine, plugged in a cable and updated the firmware.

On the other side, there are people complaining about option X or function Y the Fuji X100 doesn't have. I think it makes sense to include the options someone might need. Good to know my X100 has HD video capability, but I never used it and maybe never will.

I like to understand the technical machines I acquire. I like to play with them. When I got my last film rangefinder, I tinkered with it for 2 hours before I loaded the first roll of film. With the X100, I tinkered for 2 days. Then I had the set up I wanted and right now, I even have auto-ISO turned off so it acts like the other camera in the bag, a FED-4 loaded with Tri-X 400.

Both are at 400 ISO, both have manual settings for aperture and shutter speed.

Of course with the Fuji, I can push a button, turn a wheel, set the ISO to 3200 and continue shooting a band in a nightclub after the sun went down.

What's not to like?