Archiver
Veteran
This will be one of those rambling 'thinking out loud' posts to perhaps help me decide whether to buy a secondhand SL2-S. Feel free to ignore, or comment if you want. Yeah, we're talking about gear, you know you want to comment.
My only digital Leica is the M9. It's been my favourite camera for over 14 years and 75k images, awesome because of its handling/feel, compactness, superb colours and clarity, and tiny but high quality lenses. My everyday carry camera used to be the Canon 5D Mark II with 24-105 and/or 35L until my M9 appeared, and it blew away the Canon in so many respects except for the lack of high quality video.
My desire is to use the SL2S as a video capable alternative to my M9, a camera for both work and pleasure, for documentary and sports photography and video shooting. A camera for family and friends as well as clients in the field. A Panasonic S1 will do these things but won't have the same level of M glass performance, or the beautiful SL2S colours that I've found in sample DNG files I've shot. Panasonic S1 has a tilting screen, which only the SL3 generation have. But the S1 is even heavier than the SL2S.
Looking around online, I've noticed that many M shooters who buy into the SL system end up using the M for personal work and SL for paid work, possibly due to M system handling and size. I have the very capable Panasonic S5, but it just doesn't feel right in the hand, and doesn't inspire me to shoot like the M9 does.
Over the past few years, I've handled (never used for any length of time) the SL2 and SL2S. They feel fantastic in the hand, but the weight might pall after a while. Using M mount lenses might be the better option, along with the very light Panasonic f1.8 primes. SL2S will give me superb video, and the easy production of colours that my Panasonic S5 takes much adjustment to almost achieve.
Pros unique to the SL2S:
Awesome build quality, incredible EVF for focusing manual lenses, unique Leica colours, dual SD card slots, amazing handling/feel, weather sealing, emotional feeling of having a second digital Leica (squeeee!)
Cons:
At least 300% more expensive than a secondhand Panasonic S1, which shares many of the same features except Leica colour science and M mount glass compatibility. Large and heavy (mitigated by using M mount glass like Summicron 50?). Only fixed screen, no tilting screen at all.
Ramble over. Over to you. Meanwhile, off to do some editing.
My only digital Leica is the M9. It's been my favourite camera for over 14 years and 75k images, awesome because of its handling/feel, compactness, superb colours and clarity, and tiny but high quality lenses. My everyday carry camera used to be the Canon 5D Mark II with 24-105 and/or 35L until my M9 appeared, and it blew away the Canon in so many respects except for the lack of high quality video.
My desire is to use the SL2S as a video capable alternative to my M9, a camera for both work and pleasure, for documentary and sports photography and video shooting. A camera for family and friends as well as clients in the field. A Panasonic S1 will do these things but won't have the same level of M glass performance, or the beautiful SL2S colours that I've found in sample DNG files I've shot. Panasonic S1 has a tilting screen, which only the SL3 generation have. But the S1 is even heavier than the SL2S.
Looking around online, I've noticed that many M shooters who buy into the SL system end up using the M for personal work and SL for paid work, possibly due to M system handling and size. I have the very capable Panasonic S5, but it just doesn't feel right in the hand, and doesn't inspire me to shoot like the M9 does.
Over the past few years, I've handled (never used for any length of time) the SL2 and SL2S. They feel fantastic in the hand, but the weight might pall after a while. Using M mount lenses might be the better option, along with the very light Panasonic f1.8 primes. SL2S will give me superb video, and the easy production of colours that my Panasonic S5 takes much adjustment to almost achieve.
Pros unique to the SL2S:
Awesome build quality, incredible EVF for focusing manual lenses, unique Leica colours, dual SD card slots, amazing handling/feel, weather sealing, emotional feeling of having a second digital Leica (squeeee!)
Cons:
At least 300% more expensive than a secondhand Panasonic S1, which shares many of the same features except Leica colour science and M mount glass compatibility. Large and heavy (mitigated by using M mount glass like Summicron 50?). Only fixed screen, no tilting screen at all.
Ramble over. Over to you. Meanwhile, off to do some editing.
Out to Lunch
Ventor
To increase your already heavy burden, have you looked at the specs of the SL3S?
Archiver
Veteran
Yes, and the SL3-S is perhaps fortunately out of my budget at this time. Maybe in another five years, I'll pick up a gently used one and keep going.
Mute-on
Well-known
I really can’t help with your comparison to a Panasonic, but I do have a sort of anecdote.
I’ve visited my local second hand dealer on two occasions with the express intention of purchasing an SL (SL2S the second visit). On both occasions I came away empty handed. I think the problem is that even though I know the cameras to be incredibly capable at a technical level, at an emotional level, they are almost entirely neutral. Perhaps neutered is more accurate. Nada, nothing, no connection, no excitement, no anticipation, no nostalgia, not anything. On the other hand, as soon as I pick up any of my Leica Ms, all of that comes back …
If I was shooting for money, I would be on an SL2S in a heartbeat. As it stands, shooting for pleasure, no SL for me.
I’ve visited my local second hand dealer on two occasions with the express intention of purchasing an SL (SL2S the second visit). On both occasions I came away empty handed. I think the problem is that even though I know the cameras to be incredibly capable at a technical level, at an emotional level, they are almost entirely neutral. Perhaps neutered is more accurate. Nada, nothing, no connection, no excitement, no anticipation, no nostalgia, not anything. On the other hand, as soon as I pick up any of my Leica Ms, all of that comes back …
If I was shooting for money, I would be on an SL2S in a heartbeat. As it stands, shooting for pleasure, no SL for me.
oldwino
Well-known
I’ve shot a bit with the S1R, and it’s a phenomenal camera. For what it does. And it’s a real bargain now.
I’ve also used the original SL, and I found the Panasonic to be much better in terms of overall capabilities, more than I would normally need. The Leica had better ergonomics, bough. My time with the S5 was pleasant, but ultimately I found the camera a touch too small to be comfortable.
I’ve also used the original SL, and I found the Panasonic to be much better in terms of overall capabilities, more than I would normally need. The Leica had better ergonomics, bough. My time with the S5 was pleasant, but ultimately I found the camera a touch too small to be comfortable.
brusby
Well-known
'Don't know that I'll be able to answer your questions, particularly about video, cause I don't shoot any, but i really like the SL series. In fact I'm in Yosemite right now with 2 M9 and a SL2-S. I got mine about a year ago so I could use my M lenses.
But yesterday morning I tried to shoot a strongly baclklit scene with my beloved M9. Unfortunately, in the bright sunlight, I just could't see the image on the screen well enough to make any of the necessary decisions about whether it was a keeper or not.
So, I switched back to the SL2-S and all has been great ever since. Love my M9s, and when they are good and well suited for the type of shooting at hand, they can be really great. But there are so many cases where the SL type is just a better instrument for the job.
Another good use is if you have any M lenses there are not quite perfect regarding rangefinder calibration. It's been a pleasure having the SL2-S and knowing I can easily zoom in to get focus spot on every time with every lens.
BTW, prices of these have fallen pretty drastically recently. My dealer just reduced the price of an as-new SL by $450 so I couldn't resist at that price. It should be delivered this week.
Good luck.
p.s., this is the backlit image I was trying to take with the M9 when I switched to the SL2-s. Pretty bright sunlight and the glare from surrounding white snow made it almost impossible to see any detail on the M9s screen.
L1000154 by Brusby, on Flickr
But yesterday morning I tried to shoot a strongly baclklit scene with my beloved M9. Unfortunately, in the bright sunlight, I just could't see the image on the screen well enough to make any of the necessary decisions about whether it was a keeper or not.
So, I switched back to the SL2-S and all has been great ever since. Love my M9s, and when they are good and well suited for the type of shooting at hand, they can be really great. But there are so many cases where the SL type is just a better instrument for the job.
Another good use is if you have any M lenses there are not quite perfect regarding rangefinder calibration. It's been a pleasure having the SL2-S and knowing I can easily zoom in to get focus spot on every time with every lens.
BTW, prices of these have fallen pretty drastically recently. My dealer just reduced the price of an as-new SL by $450 so I couldn't resist at that price. It should be delivered this week.
Good luck.
p.s., this is the backlit image I was trying to take with the M9 when I switched to the SL2-s. Pretty bright sunlight and the glare from surrounding white snow made it almost impossible to see any detail on the M9s screen.
L1000154 by Brusby, on Flickr
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Out to Lunch
Ventor
BH is now selling the SL2S for $3,095, and the SL2 for $3,799.
brusby
Well-known
boojum
Ignoble Miscreant
There are the tech specs. There is price. There are reviews. There is what your buddies say. Which feels better in your hands?
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shawn
Veteran
The S1/S1R is an amazing camera. I have the S1R, an IR converted S1 and also the Sigma fp L for L mount bodies. I prefer having more physical controls on the Panny vs the Leica and I really don't like the power switch location on the Leica. I like being able to hold the camera at my side in my right hand and turn it on as I bring it to my eye. The power switch on the Sigma annoys me for the same reason.
Internally, the SL2-S and S1 look to be very similar cameras but there are some differences. For example the S1 has more aspect ratio options include 65:24. Put a 24mm on it and you have almost exactly the same FOV as an XPan with the 45mm. Accessories are going to be much cheaper such as batteries and the grip. The grip on the S1R/S1 is extremely well integrated with the body. The body will also be much cheaper too. I see S1 for around $800 now.
The build quality of the S1/S1R is extremely good too, has the same EVF as the SL2S, and is also weather sealed, with dual slots.
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
Buying used camera which has no reputable, professional service with intention for business is odd business solution.
Especially if two batteries costs as half of the camera which is made by those who has been making video gear for decades.
Especially if two batteries costs as half of the camera which is made by those who has been making video gear for decades.
shawn
Veteran
A 4 pack of batteries for the S1 is $63.
Freakscene
Obscure member
That’s what @Ko.Fe. is saying - Leica SL2 batteries are $US200, proprietary and who knows when there might be a supply drought vs a highly available, inexpensive battery for the Panasonics.
brusby
Well-known
I'd never try to depend on Leica gear in a business or other professional situation. Their service history is abysmal and costs for things like batteries are extravagant. Canon otoh has wonderful customer service, super fast turnaround and things like batties are plentiful and affordable.
But for hobby use, with the much lower acquisition cost of the used Leica SL series cameras currently, it's a different equation, at least for me. The ability to use M lenses seamlessly, plus the pleasure I get from using the SL cameras and the results they produce for me far outweigh any negatives. But I'm sure for many others they come up with a different response.
But for hobby use, with the much lower acquisition cost of the used Leica SL series cameras currently, it's a different equation, at least for me. The ability to use M lenses seamlessly, plus the pleasure I get from using the SL cameras and the results they produce for me far outweigh any negatives. But I'm sure for many others they come up with a different response.
boojum
Ignoble Miscreant
Oh, the woes of Leica, Leica support and Leica accessories. The battery for an X2D is <US100, 3400 mAh. The battery for a Q3 43 is US$200 for 2200 mAh. I had a question on sensor cover cleaning on the X2D and emailed HB on a Saturday. On opening of business Monday I had an answer from a genial fellow who also supplied a link to a YT vid of how to do it. The Q3 43 sensor cover cleaning? Send it in to Leica.
I am not saying that Leica is not a good camera. There are others as good or better, some for less money. The Sony A7CR has equaled and in some instances bested the Q3 43 in tests at about half the price, interchangeable lenses, can run all that M-body Leica glass you have with an adapter and you can clean your own sensor cover. I understand the A7CR EVF is not as good as the Q3 43. Not a problem, it is the image I care about not how it looks through the viewfinder. I know I am a grouchy, cranky old geezer but I am rapidly becoming of the opinion that Leica is a good camera, but . . .
One last shot, I had an A7M II I was sending to a friend. It had some glitch so I wanted that fixed before I gave it away. I arranged with Sony for repairs and mailed it off to their contracted facility. Two week turnaround time, ~US$200 for repairs and CLA and phone contact all through it.
I am not saying that Leica is not a good camera. There are others as good or better, some for less money. The Sony A7CR has equaled and in some instances bested the Q3 43 in tests at about half the price, interchangeable lenses, can run all that M-body Leica glass you have with an adapter and you can clean your own sensor cover. I understand the A7CR EVF is not as good as the Q3 43. Not a problem, it is the image I care about not how it looks through the viewfinder. I know I am a grouchy, cranky old geezer but I am rapidly becoming of the opinion that Leica is a good camera, but . . .
One last shot, I had an A7M II I was sending to a friend. It had some glitch so I wanted that fixed before I gave it away. I arranged with Sony for repairs and mailed it off to their contracted facility. Two week turnaround time, ~US$200 for repairs and CLA and phone contact all through it.
brusby
Well-known
If smeary corners are your thing then by all means run your M lens on a nice thick Sony stack.
And what would prevent someone from cleaning their own sensor cover with the Leica SL or any other digital camera for that matter? I clean all mine whenever needed.
And I've had Leicas dating back to the 1970's, including M9s, M240, Sl and SL-2S. I've never spent even a single penny on Leica repair or refurbishment. I mention this just for perspective for all the people who post how little money they spend on their non Leica cameras.
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shawn
Veteran
Yes, I was adding supporting evidence.
Archiver
Veteran
Thanks for all the input from owners and readers alike. The battery issue is an important one, as is service. A local company called Betterbatt has Panasonic S1 aftermarket batteries for only AUD $31. I've used Betterbatt for years and would happily buy them if I got a S1. Leica batteries are $340 each, and if I'm using the camera intensively, I'd definitely need a spare. I shudder when I read about people with 6 spare SL2S batteries, the cost!
Repair and service is another issue. Panasonic has a Pro Service department in Australia which promises loaner gear where available and speedy repair turnaround. Leica doesn't, from what I understand, and reported repair times are lonnnnggg. On the other hand, I've only ever had to have my M9 repaired once in 14 years, and only two of my Panasonics have developed faults. Interestingly, both were faults with the mechanical shutter. So I may not even need Leica repair services, and I have other cameras that can take up the slack if necessary.
A third issue is finding a Panasonic S1 that already has the video firmware upgrade. It's a paid upgrade that unlocks significant video features that are essential for me. If the secondhand S1 doesn't have it, that's another $300 on top. The SL2S already has these features installed, but I'd still pay about three times as much for the ability to shoot M glass with minimal issues, video features and that awesome build quality.
I might go to my local to check both cameras out. @boojum I need to hold these cameras side by side and feel what is better in the hand and what inspires me to shoot. TBH my heart says SL2S but I do like the feel of the S1, too. Still thinking.
Repair and service is another issue. Panasonic has a Pro Service department in Australia which promises loaner gear where available and speedy repair turnaround. Leica doesn't, from what I understand, and reported repair times are lonnnnggg. On the other hand, I've only ever had to have my M9 repaired once in 14 years, and only two of my Panasonics have developed faults. Interestingly, both were faults with the mechanical shutter. So I may not even need Leica repair services, and I have other cameras that can take up the slack if necessary.
A third issue is finding a Panasonic S1 that already has the video firmware upgrade. It's a paid upgrade that unlocks significant video features that are essential for me. If the secondhand S1 doesn't have it, that's another $300 on top. The SL2S already has these features installed, but I'd still pay about three times as much for the ability to shoot M glass with minimal issues, video features and that awesome build quality.
I might go to my local to check both cameras out. @boojum I need to hold these cameras side by side and feel what is better in the hand and what inspires me to shoot. TBH my heart says SL2S but I do like the feel of the S1, too. Still thinking.
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shawn
Veteran
You could also look for the S1H. Or see if you can find the video upgrade cheap. I found a copy for $50 a few months ago. Grabbed it and don’t even have a S1 I would use it on yet.
Archiver
Veteran
I would snap up a S1H in an instant if one appeared at a good price. One or two years ago, one turned up secondhand at a reliable shop for something ludicrous like $1600 but I didn't have the spare cash. If you know how expensive it was at retail, paying $1600 seems like something illegal. I'd love to find the firmware upgrade cheap!