nobbylon
Veteran
well now....I've been taking pics for 37years and like you Roger have a varied kit and from Yashica TL electro back in '76 through many Nikons mechanical and electrical to battery powered DSLR's and plenty of meter battery driven Leica's. I can honestly hand on heart say that I have never had a camera stop working due to a flat battery.
A 'certain lack of age and experience' !
I don't know where you get these gems of wisdom from! I'm both old enough and experienced enough to know that a camera requiring a battery may need a spare or two. I carry them and it's not rocket science.
When did I dismiss so cavalierly those who prefer cameras that work without batteries? hardly, I have a safe full of them!!!!
I'm sure you post such judgemental posts just to raise my blood pressure
Roger Hicks
Veteran
well now....I've been taking pics for 37years and like you Roger have a varied kit and from Yashica TL electro back in '76 through many Nikons mechanical and electrical to battery powered DSLR's and plenty of meter battery driven Leica's. I can honestly hand on heart say that I have never had a camera stop working due to a flat battery.
A 'certain lack of age and experience' !
I don't know where you get these gems of wisdom from! I'm both old enough and experienced enough to know that a camera requiring a battery may need a spare or two. I carry them and it's not rocket science.
When did I dismiss so cavalierly those who prefer cameras that work without batteries? hardly, I have a safe full of them!!!!
I'm sure you post such judgemental posts just to raise my blood pressure
If not age, then experience. As I say, I sincerely hope you'll never forget to carry a spare battery. Because, if one day you do, you may suddenly think, "Gosh, I wish this camera would work without batteries."
As I've tried to make clear, it's a minor point. But utterly to dismiss the arguments of those who regard battery dependency as a factor to be considered, in the way that you do, strikes me as... well... to be kind... lacking in imagination.
As you say, carrying spare batteries isn't rocket science. But are you honestly telling me that you've never forgotten anything important, in your whole life?
Cheers,
R.
nobbylon
Veteran
If i'm shootting Nikon I carry a fully charged 2nd battery. The D700 batteries last me around 3 days on full charge and I rarely have to resort to the 2nd. I carry 12 AA eneloops for the flash. If I'm in Leica mode I always have a blister pack of sr44 in the Billingham although all my M bodies are mechanical so it would only be the meter down anyway.
When going anywhere remote (ish) and the last time was the Himalaya I tape 2 spare sets of sr44 to the camera strap with gaffer tape.
I've just got used to making sure that whatever kit I'm taking with me I'm covered on the battery front. I started this when I used to use R8 but in fairness to that camera it never needed them.
It's not being dismissive Roger, it's being organised. Understanding the limitations of anything, be it mechanical, electrical or both enables the user to make full use of with as little disruption as possible.
I used to think along the same lines regarding battery powered cameras myself but got over it by understanding the need for back up power.
When going anywhere remote (ish) and the last time was the Himalaya I tape 2 spare sets of sr44 to the camera strap with gaffer tape.
I've just got used to making sure that whatever kit I'm taking with me I'm covered on the battery front. I started this when I used to use R8 but in fairness to that camera it never needed them.
It's not being dismissive Roger, it's being organised. Understanding the limitations of anything, be it mechanical, electrical or both enables the user to make full use of with as little disruption as possible.
I used to think along the same lines regarding battery powered cameras myself but got over it by understanding the need for back up power.
desparengo
Newbie
Actually this battery issue is hugely overstated to the point where it is really to all intent and purpose a NON ISSUE, the vast majority of pros and amateurs use digital these days and simply and I'll repeat simply take a spare battery with them... its 2011 for goodness sake - 99% of cameras take batteries nowadays - if you can remember spare film, you can remember spare batteries and if you don’t then I’m sure you will learn the lesson well, the first time it happens. To base a decision like choosing an MP vs M7 on the odd occasion you might not have batteries is utterly missing the point.
I love a beautiful mechanical watch – do mine tell the time as well as my G Shock with circuitry that picks up all five atomic radio signals around the world? No none of them do. I still love wearing a mechanical watch everyday though. The MP is like that – its just about as basic as a film camera gets but its built wonderfully and will probably give you a thrill every time you use it. It’s a camera for someone who places value on a certain romantic idealism. You can pick up a classic m6 for around £750 if you look hard enough, try one and see if you like it, you’ll be able to sell it on without taking a hit and then if you want, buy an MP.
Roger made an interesting point and it regards age – if you grew up before AE was the norm then you might not miss it, if you have grown up with cameras made in the last 30 years it’s a very basic function, and something you’ll more than likely find quite useful. And as for ever thinking "Gosh, I wish this camera would work without batteries." Well, you’ll have to be over a certain age for a thought like that to even enter your head! (Of course that’s not a bad thing but it seems that “experience” can sometimes cloud the issue!)
The M7 is capable of more accurate and incremental shutter speeds – this is a good thing… and the exposure lock function makes for very speedy exposures once you know what to meter from.
The MP finder is also a good thing (thats why they improved it), so worth finding a later or upgraded M7 if that’s your choice, because it evens things out between them nicely. Good luck in deciding, they are some of the most beautiful cameras around. Its worth noting that they are both frankly virtually mechanical by today’s standards, sometimes its hard for leica owners to put things in perspective.
And remember it’s the glass that really counts!!!
Sean de Sparengo
desparengo.com
coy-com.com
I love a beautiful mechanical watch – do mine tell the time as well as my G Shock with circuitry that picks up all five atomic radio signals around the world? No none of them do. I still love wearing a mechanical watch everyday though. The MP is like that – its just about as basic as a film camera gets but its built wonderfully and will probably give you a thrill every time you use it. It’s a camera for someone who places value on a certain romantic idealism. You can pick up a classic m6 for around £750 if you look hard enough, try one and see if you like it, you’ll be able to sell it on without taking a hit and then if you want, buy an MP.
Roger made an interesting point and it regards age – if you grew up before AE was the norm then you might not miss it, if you have grown up with cameras made in the last 30 years it’s a very basic function, and something you’ll more than likely find quite useful. And as for ever thinking "Gosh, I wish this camera would work without batteries." Well, you’ll have to be over a certain age for a thought like that to even enter your head! (Of course that’s not a bad thing but it seems that “experience” can sometimes cloud the issue!)
The M7 is capable of more accurate and incremental shutter speeds – this is a good thing… and the exposure lock function makes for very speedy exposures once you know what to meter from.
The MP finder is also a good thing (thats why they improved it), so worth finding a later or upgraded M7 if that’s your choice, because it evens things out between them nicely. Good luck in deciding, they are some of the most beautiful cameras around. Its worth noting that they are both frankly virtually mechanical by today’s standards, sometimes its hard for leica owners to put things in perspective.
And remember it’s the glass that really counts!!!
Sean de Sparengo
desparengo.com
coy-com.com
MCTuomey
Veteran
Sean, if your subsequent posts are half as thoughtful, you'll be appreciated on this forum. Welcome to RFF! A great first post, I'd say.
LeicaFan
Well-known
I wouldn't mind an M7, but if I had to pick one, the MP would be it. I think the fit and finish is better with the MP and I like the classic styling.
In the long run, I think that the MP will outlast the M7 since it has less electronics. There is more to go wrong with the M7. This could all be in my head, however. Who knows...
In the long run, I think that the MP will outlast the M7 since it has less electronics. There is more to go wrong with the M7. This could all be in my head, however. Who knows...
Austerby
Well-known
I'd forgotten the time when a flat battery on my M7 let me down. I was packing for a trip to the south of France for a weekend, visiting some friends. I got my M7 out, checked it and discovered it was dead. Only the manual shutter and no meter. I looked for my spare batteries but remembered I'd used them. I'd left the camera without switching it off. My bad.
I left the M7 at home and took my M3 instead - no batteries, no meter, fully functional.
That was a few years ago and I no longer have the M7: now I carry the M3 and a Zeiss Ikon as backup.
I left the M7 at home and took my M3 instead - no batteries, no meter, fully functional.
That was a few years ago and I no longer have the M7: now I carry the M3 and a Zeiss Ikon as backup.
redisburning
Well-known
all else equal the camera that doesnt require batteries is clearly superior to the one that does.
that is not to say the M7 and the MP are equal in all other regards.
personally I think the MP is an expensive camera to have doubts about. well honestly I think even a beater engraved M3 is an expensive camera to have doubts about but seriously if you don't love the MP maybe it's time to downgrade to something else?
I can't imagine that you would love the M7 anymore than an MP but I cant say that for sure. I guess if you think to yourself on occasion "boy this camera would be perfect if it had AE" then maybe that's the answer.
FWIW I prefer cameras without batteries too!
that is not to say the M7 and the MP are equal in all other regards.
personally I think the MP is an expensive camera to have doubts about. well honestly I think even a beater engraved M3 is an expensive camera to have doubts about but seriously if you don't love the MP maybe it's time to downgrade to something else?
I can't imagine that you would love the M7 anymore than an MP but I cant say that for sure. I guess if you think to yourself on occasion "boy this camera would be perfect if it had AE" then maybe that's the answer.
FWIW I prefer cameras without batteries too!
yee
Jonathan
I prefer cameras that can operate fully manual without batteries, too! As for digital, of course you're stuck with the charger-cord-battery setup for life, and that's one more reason I love mechanical cameras. It's enough to carry my android phone, which has the free beeCam lightmeter as a crutch.
I'd say sell the MP, get an M6ttl and with the left over cash buy the SF-58 flash.
I'd say sell the MP, get an M6ttl and with the left over cash buy the SF-58 flash.
Richard G
Veteran
1. He's already got the MP. I don't think money is a concern for the OP. That's fine.
2. He's not experienced enough to know for sure what he wants, but is already managing with the MP. My dilemma with the M7, if I got one, which I might, is the growing dependence on AE, and worse, the choice of AE or manual. I suggest he sticks with manual since he's already got the MP and learn to shoot manual and when he's more decided on what he requires then he can decide on the swap.
3. Battery dependence is an issue as Roger points out. But Mike is also right. The same preparedness for important tasks demands not only spare batteries but a back up camera. If the back up is manual there is no dilemma running an M7. I have seen more trouble on RFF with MPs than M7s. The quietness is something I would like.
4. This morning I was with the M5 and 25 ASA film, and the light was changing by the second. At this unfamiliar ISO my intuition of the correct exposure, aided by the meter, was not working at all well - I'm fine between 100 and 400 - and the M7 would have been just the thing.
5. I have never got the MP disease. It couldn't be as good as my M2 or M5.
2. He's not experienced enough to know for sure what he wants, but is already managing with the MP. My dilemma with the M7, if I got one, which I might, is the growing dependence on AE, and worse, the choice of AE or manual. I suggest he sticks with manual since he's already got the MP and learn to shoot manual and when he's more decided on what he requires then he can decide on the swap.
3. Battery dependence is an issue as Roger points out. But Mike is also right. The same preparedness for important tasks demands not only spare batteries but a back up camera. If the back up is manual there is no dilemma running an M7. I have seen more trouble on RFF with MPs than M7s. The quietness is something I would like.
4. This morning I was with the M5 and 25 ASA film, and the light was changing by the second. At this unfamiliar ISO my intuition of the correct exposure, aided by the meter, was not working at all well - I'm fine between 100 and 400 - and the M7 would have been just the thing.
5. I have never got the MP disease. It couldn't be as good as my M2 or M5.
Beemermark
Veteran
Not sure why you think the MP is more "easily" repairable than the M7 or why you think the M7 is built to a lesser standard.
But having had two M7's (only one now) and having returned an MP here's my two cents -
The MP is prettier
The MP is retro cool
The M7 -
-Has AE and Manual. AE calculates exposure in between stops.
-Is faster for candid shooting with more keepers since I do have to pre-guess and set the exposure
-Reloads are faster because it has a real rewind knob
-Don't have to buy a $200 gizmo to put on the rewind knob when I get fed up with rewinding film
-Has AE, did I already say that? After 40+ years why do some people still a "real" photographer has to guess at exposure and manipulate controls manually
Just my 2 cents
kbg32
neo-romanticist
I have both a M7 and a MP. They are both stellar cameras. The build quality is no "myth". They are both like tanks. I think the perception of "lesser" build quality started with the M4-2, which was made of a different metal top and bottom plates, and some innards, and continued on through the M6s, etc.. Leica got their mojo back with the MP and M7.
BTW, my M7 is the quietest camera I have ever known and used.
BTW, my M7 is the quietest camera I have ever known and used.
wooiloon
Member
When the temperature is cold enough to freeze the battery, then the battery-dependent camera is the issue to blame. Sometime during the winter, the battery really can't function well, and it just can't fire the shutter! Mechanical camera will resolve this issue.
Archiver
Veteran
I have a M7, and one day I'll most likely have a MP, too. The M7 works just like my M9, only with film and the inability to change ISO 'mid roll', so to speak.
As for the battery thing: years ago I got my first digital camera. One day I found that I had run out of memory card space, which annoyed me greatly. After that I resolved to carry a spare card all the time. Over time I upgraded cameras and now carry multiple cameras, but I still carry spare cards and spare batteries.
The M7's battery is so easy to carry and store. Buy a couple of batteries and put them in a film canister. Put a few such canisters in the bags you will carry on a regular basis, or in the pockets of your jacket along with film. If you can remember to bring spare film you can remember to take spare batteries; if not, stowing away canisters with batteries will give you backup when you need it.
As for the battery thing: years ago I got my first digital camera. One day I found that I had run out of memory card space, which annoyed me greatly. After that I resolved to carry a spare card all the time. Over time I upgraded cameras and now carry multiple cameras, but I still carry spare cards and spare batteries.
The M7's battery is so easy to carry and store. Buy a couple of batteries and put them in a film canister. Put a few such canisters in the bags you will carry on a regular basis, or in the pockets of your jacket along with film. If you can remember to bring spare film you can remember to take spare batteries; if not, stowing away canisters with batteries will give you backup when you need it.
rxmd
May contain traces of nut
Haven't had that happen yet on any camera and we've been having temperatures below -20° since mid-December. It's a non-issue. Film becoming brittle is the bigger problem.
Most people who talk about battery and cold issues are IMHO either living in the kind of romantic idealism Sean was talking about, or like to stylize themselves into nature photographers in the Antarctic or on Everest or something, or are trying to justify to themselves and the world why they spent so much money on their cameras.
nobbylon
Veteran
The M4-2 still had the brass top and bottom plates, the zinc started with the m4-P.
The innards of the m4-2 were the forerunner of pretty much every Leica M since with the exception of a few brass gears in the MP.
As far as build quality is concerned, it was only the first batch of m4-2's that had the odd teething problem caused by assembly technicians unused to the format. These cameras have long since been sorted and are as nice as any other M out there.
I have an early one sat in front of me that was bought new by a professional school portrait photographer in '78 and used constantly until 7 years ago and apart from service never gave him any problem.
nobbylon
Veteran
Indeed and the only batteries that I saw die in the Himalaya were pocket digicams. My Nikon and Leica's were fine.
I have a photo of Reinhold Messner on Everest with a Leica R4 around his neck in temperatures well below anything most of us will ever go to and he seemed to have brought back plenty of nice pictures
Keep the camera under your jacket if it worries you that much. Coldest I've ever been to is -20 C and I've never had a battery or LCD problem.
Araakii
Well-known
Totally agree. The batteries are pretty easy to find even if you don't bring spare. I don't see why it's such a big deal to so many shooters.
Dylan Hope
Established
I use a mechanical M, but I can't see what all the fuss about the battery dependence of the M7 is for. If you're the kind of person to bring at least one extra roll with you out of habit or need, surely it'd be fairly easy to bring a battery with too.
If you have to travel far and wide to get the batteries, grab a handful and store them with care.
Basically, treat batteries like you do film; after all, I doubt most of members here buy one roll at a time unless they really can't afford to (I think we've all been there at some stage), so why do the same with batteries if your camera needs it? I'm a little hypocritical suggesting this though, since I have no spares for my M6, but darn it, I don't need them to shoot in the an M7 owner would
If you have to travel far and wide to get the batteries, grab a handful and store them with care.
Basically, treat batteries like you do film; after all, I doubt most of members here buy one roll at a time unless they really can't afford to (I think we've all been there at some stage), so why do the same with batteries if your camera needs it? I'm a little hypocritical suggesting this though, since I have no spares for my M6, but darn it, I don't need them to shoot in the an M7 owner would