Time to buy my first Leica

[thomasw_]

I say spend less on body and more on Lens, Buy a R4a/R4m Voiglaender (it covers 21mm lens from rangefinder) $600 and go for a nice Leica lens like elmarit-m 28mm f/2.8 ASPH.

Well he wants a Leica and he has the dough for it; your option is roughly the same cost as a M2: so no savings on the body. Also he wants a 35 to start, not a 28.

OP ===> I urge you to get the M2 and a small size 35. You'll enjoy what the RF shooter loves about shooting RFs; a small form factor and very fine image quality. Beyond that, you can add if you desire.

 

[ustedalen]

Jon, by now I question your motives, and I think you should do too.

Why have you decided you want a Leica? It seems you do not know the most elementary specifics of it. Is there somebody that should be impressed with the Leica? Is it THE thing to have, being a Norwegian photography student?

It's not that the M2 ' isn't too bad', it's a stellar camera of brilliant quality.

Frankly, I suspect you have enrolled for a photography course, but are not a photography student in the sense we understand.

All of this is fine with me, but please read the darn CameraQuest pages and then come back with questions left, okay?

Enjoy the read!

No, I don't know the elementary specifics of a Leica camera - that's why I started this post so that I could get some information. No, there is no one that should get impressed of me having a Leica. It's not the thing to have, being a Norwegian photography student.

I've been photographing for years now with dSLRs, but I've realized that digital photography is not the thing for me. At least not for the moment. So I went over to traditional film photography. I've been using both a Pentax ME Super and a Pentax ME for a long time now. Great cameras, but I'm looking for something with a little better quality. Of course, I could buy one of the newer Nikon SLR cameras, but I'm looking for something else than an SLR this time (I already have them, digital and film).
A rangefinder would suit me, I think - both in the form of photography I'm doing and the simplicity of one. After I got my Rolleiflex, I quit using the other cameras. They are to big, and demand to much attention. I only want to have my Rolleiflex around my neck, and a RF in my pocket.
A friend of mine has a Konica Hexar, which I've tried. Great camera, but it get's to digital for my taste (with all the autofocus etc). That's why I've been thinking about buying a Leica. I know the camera from repuration, and I know it's great. Of course, I don't know everything about the camera, but do you know, for example, everything about a car before you are thinking about buying one?

It's not like I believe that I can get great shots only because I have a Leica. I know my photography; I only want a camera that will suit me the best. And for the first time in my life, I have the money to buy a Leica.

I really don't care what you believe about me studying photography. I'm starting my second year this upcomming fall, and I love photography more than anything else. It's my passion!

I hope that this gave you a little idea of why I want to buy a Leica. Is it really that horrible that I don't know everything about Leicas? That I'm trying to get some information about the camera I want to buy, from other users? Well, if that - I'm sorry! But I don't really see your problem!

Alright, I'll read the "darn" CameraQuest. I've already been in there several times, but I've obviously skipped out the part where I'm green!

Jon

 

[BillBingham2]

....Also he wants a 35 to start, not a 28......

If he did I'd recommend the M4-P.

He wants a Leica, he can afford a Leica, he should and can have a Leica. There are lots of fine other options but why not go for one of the best? Start clean and simple, learn and grow but you have very strong parts that will last for ever. I've had several Bessas over the years, never had any problem with them, but to me, even as good as they were, they were not Leicas. I've moved from Leicas to a RF that for me is better. For Jon I don't think what makes it good for me would rate anywhere near as high for him.

Jon, please keep asking question, many of us are happy to answer. Please understand that some may get mad when some ask the same question that was asked two weeks ago in another stream, but they are not most of what makes up RFF. This site is built upon people helping, asking, learning, challenging, thinking, sharing and some times disagreeing. Every so often folks get close to the line but by in large most are great. Ask and re-ask till you feel you understand, we will get you there. Some people need to understand there is an off button on their computer.

B2 (;->

B2 (;->

 

[Svitantti]

OK, now it sounds better 😉.

I guess you should next find out what is a rangefinder camera and how it works. A Leica is quite expensive to buy without knowing what it is... And in this case, why it would be better than a cheap Canonet for example. Maybe you should first try some of those to see if it really fits your purposes. They are great cameras sure, but they dont fit everyones photography and needs. Might take some time to get used to one, after using mostly reflex cameras.

There are also alternatives for the Leica within M-bayonet systems, like the Konica Hexar RF (your friend has Konica Hexar AF which is much different) and the Bessas. Leica, for example an M2 or M4 is the simplest and probably the most durable, but also usually a bit more expensive. I really think the M2 is the best choice here, as it is cheapest to start with and suits the requirements of 35mm framelines. Basically all the Leicas up to M6 are much the same, except for minor differences with the viewfinder framelines and the M6 having a meter of its own. M2 is a more simple one with knob rewind and spool loading...

But theyre still pretty much the same, except for M5 which looks a bit different and is often overlooked because of its different shape. Still it has the same basic functions plus the meter.

 

[Svitantti]

If he did I'd recommend the M4-P.

He wants a Leica, he can afford a Leica, he should and can have a Leica. There are lots of fine other options but why not go for one of the best? Start clean and simple, learn and grow but you have very strong parts that will last for ever. I've had several Bessas over the years, never had any problem with them, but to me, even as good as they were, they were not Leicas. I've moved from Leicas to a RF that for me is better. For Jon I don't think what makes it good for me would rate anywhere near as high for him.

Why M4-P if he just wants a 35?

Not everyone knows what is best for them. They might want a Ferrari without knowing which fuel to use with it and after buying one, they could think it was a waste of money because you cant drive that fast anyway legally etc etc...

Maybe we should help him by telling why he should or shouldn't get the Leica, not just tell him a Leica is best of all cameras 🙂.

 

[ZebGoesZeiss]

Of course, I don't know everything about the camera, but do you know, for example, everything about a car before you are thinking about buying one?

No, but I think it is safe to assume that anyone thinking about buying a car knows the basics concerning steering it 🙂

Jon, I would recommend having a look at the Leica M6 manual which is available at http://www.forloren.dk/lbf/leicaM6w.pdf

When it comes to focusing and actually using the camera, it more or less is the same as for every other M camera. Like others have said, there are differences when it comes to the older M's (M2, M3), especially film loading, electronic metering, etc.

What I'm about to say isn't meant as an insult, or anything, but at this pre-purchase point of time you could do a lot worse than ask yourself why you think a rangefinder would suit you. Is it the size? There really isn't any need for you to justify your purchase to any of us (at least not me!), but do yourself the service of answering that question truthfully to yourself before coughing up that hard-earned money.

Like I said, this is not an insult, and I hope you take it the "right" way 🙂

Best of luck, whatever you end up with!

 

[David Hughes]

SNIP!
Maybe we should help him by telling why he should or shouldn't get the Leica, not just tell him a Leica is best of all cameras 🙂.

Well, we've certainly done that but I think I can understand it. Here's my latest 2d worth.

What you get with a coupled range-finder (CRF) is precise and accurate focusing. And in a straight forward style that won't depend on your eyesight being 20/20 as a SLR does. And you'll get if from almost any CRF, even non-Leica made ones - I've yet to see or use a bad one. I started with an Olympus 35SP but couldn't afford one these days, and the cost of getting it and all my other cameras right (sigh).

What you, or perhaps I, get from a Leica CRF is an almost timeless and simple camera that's nicely built and feels right and works instinctively. And you get those lovely lenses on the front and no frills, not even self timers if thinking about some M2's !

And Leica might make expensive cameras but they seem to understand photographers and photography. They even recommend outfits for people with less money who lust after them. For example the f/2·8 lenses in 35 and 90 and leaving out the 50 mm for a usable outfit.

Not only that but the firm employs people who understand us and don't preach to us. You can ring them up and visit them and they are easy to deal with and deliver the goods. Just don't look at their displays of old cameras because you'll walk away feeling very, very jealous...

And then there's those nice friendly people on the forum and all the small firms who'll help you look after your camera even though - in some cases - it's nearly 80 years old. And they'll keep you posted with progress and happily chat.

'nuff said?

Regards, David

 

[januaryman]

I agree (mostly) with Barrett and love his quote from the Who -- Another analogy with the meterless M2 or M4 is Star Wars' Luke Skywalker using "the Force" - just get used to using the camera and getting light readings from your meter at first, then you begin to just apply the skills you've learned instinctively. You just start shooting in the same way that you instinctively drive your car, knowing what to do without any deep thought involved. As Barrett rightly pointed out, it ain't rocket science.

What I do not agree with (and I'm in the minority, probably) is that the spools of the M2 are a dis-incentive to the camera. I have NEVER mis-loaded an M2. My mis-loading count on the M4 (my fault, no doubt) stands at FOUR. Why? Well, I put the leader between the plastic "fingers," cock the shutter twice, the film seems to wrap around the spindle, so I close her up and off I go, thinking all is well. But for these 4 times I mentioned, it never did catch. The film advance lever would operate, the shutter worked, but the film had just slipped free early on and I was winding nothing after each shot. I wound the film right back into the cassette in a few short turns, losing all those carefully composed shots and the roll of film, since I wound the leader all the way back into the cassette. No way to FU that way with an M2.

Also I disagree with the extra spools method. Given the price of these things, two of them can cost as much as 1/3 or 1/2 the price of another (bargain) M2! So get 2 M2's. Or just don't worry about it. As long as you have a couple of free minutes between rolls, you won't notice the problem.

As for your question of where to get the lenses, Cameraquest is the place to go for CV lenses, and jiri_e on ebay sells quality Canon LTM lenses (I got my Canon 35/2.0 from him, and a Canon 50/1.4 that a Flickr member bought from him but did not want, and so sold it to me. Both are great.) Kevin's Camera has great lenses that are hard to find, but the prices are a bit high for me. KEH is another good source for used gear. I bought a Canon P that was rated as a "bargain" that was in excellent shape and did not even need a CLA. I have 2 lenses that I also bought there, also rated "bargain" and definitely were. Great gear at lower prices. Adorama has a used section, but I never bought from them. And no, I don't work for any of the people/stores.

Good luck

Almost seems like an epidemic, but I'm on-board with the M2 idea as well. Yes, I have one, alongside my pair of Konica Hexar RFs, and the M2 is a model of concentrated simplicity. Taking the camera out with me, with just the 35 f/2 Summicron (first version), together with a few rolls of film, puts me in mind of that famous line from The Who's "Pinball Wizard":

Ain't got no distractions
Can't hear no buzzers and bells
Don't see no lights flashing
Plays by sense of smell

I'm with Bill: an M2 body, plus several extra take-up spools, and you'll jave all you need from a camera-body standpoint.

- Barrett

 

[Svitantti]

I think the film loading will not happen in 2 seconds with any Leica, even though with Tom's trick it is fairly fast and easy with any Leica after M4. The rewind lever of M4 (and after) is very nice I think though, but I have never used an M2 so I guess it could be ok too.

But if film runs out, you pretty much lose the next shot if it had to happen like 5 seconds later.

I've also misloaded my M4 once or twice, but not after I learned to bend the tip of the film to help it catch...

 

[BillBingham2]

Why M4-P if he just wants a 35?

I had quoted a previous writer that suggested he switch to a 28mm. I said that in that case I would have suggested an M4-P as the M2 doesn't officially do that without external finders.

B2 (;->

 

[nzeeman]

m4p can be found around 800$ i think at keh - and for lens you can take ultron 35/1.7 or nokton 35/1.4 or even ultron 28/2. i think that will keep you in very modest price and later you can decide which way to go next...

 

[tbarker13]

Hopefully, one of the things the OP has learned here is that there are no right or wrong answers. There is no perfect camera or lens.
Pick something that's been recommended in one of these posts (something that seems close to what you are looking for) and you'll love it.
If for some reason you don't, then you'll sell it and get something else.
Don't worry about finding the perfect kit. Just buy something and start using it.

 

[BillBingham2]

The extra spools are an option. It's worth keeping his eyes open on EvilBay and at shops for them.

For his first lens I do think new is the way to run. Get the M2 either from a very trusted source or a shop that will stand behind it. Till you learn the ins and outs you can sink a lot of money into crud.

I almost always opened up the back to make sure both sprockets were engaged. Got pretty quick over the years. Still do the same thing with my Nikons, always wide the film till both sets of teeth are firmly in there.

It seems every 15 years or so I need reminding to run the rewind to make sure it has tension on it before I declare I'm locked and loaded.

B2 (;->

 

[johannielscom]

Jon,

welcome to the forum. I'm happy to help you out any way I can, I just needed some assurance this help would actually contribute to anything, something your first posts did not get across.

Is there anybody in your college that owns a Leica? Ask to meet and discuss it, handle it and you'll know if your name is on the list!😉

from your earlier posts I read you will be using the Rolleiflex, but want to have another camera in your pocket as well. In that case, I would suggest an M2 with a 35mm Summaron lens. Or possibly a Voigtländer Color-Skopar, since it's small as well.

Happy to read you have found the DSLR is not the summit of camera-dom, the Rolleiflex is a beautiful tool and I bet you'll love the M2 even more in time!

 

[ustedalen]

No, but I think it is safe to assume that anyone thinking about buying a car knows the basics concerning steering it 🙂

Jon, I would recommend having a look at the Leica M6 manual which is available at http://www.forloren.dk/lbf/leicaM6w.pdf

When it comes to focusing and actually using the camera, it more or less is the same as for every other M camera. Like others have said, there are differences when it comes to the older M's (M2, M3), especially film loading, electronic metering, etc.

What I'm about to say isn't meant as an insult, or anything, but at this pre-purchase point of time you could do a lot worse than ask yourself why you think a rangefinder would suit you. Is it the size? There really isn't any need for you to justify your purchase to any of us (at least not me!), but do yourself the service of answering that question truthfully to yourself before coughing up that hard-earned money.

Like I said, this is not an insult, and I hope you take it the "right" way 🙂

Best of luck, whatever you end up with!

The reason I asked for the focusing system is that I've seen so many different system. It seams that each camera has their own kind of system. I never looked through the viewfinder of a Leica, therefore I didn't know what kind of system it uses.
But now I've read through the manual, and I do understand the focusing system without any problems.

Don't you worry; I don't take it as an insult. 🙂
Recently, I've had an photo exhibition which I've earn quite a lot of money on (surprisingly. My first exhibition and did it only for fun. I didn't expect on making money on it), and I've been working through the summer. So, I have money to spend, and I see Leica as an investment more than "throwing money out of the window at some random gear".
I think a rangefinder will suit me because of the kind of photography I'm doing. I love doing street photography, and I have a huge project going on. My Rolleiflex is perfect, but it attracts attention because of the size and the very old/unfamiliar appearance. That's not a bad thing - when it looks like a Rollei. As soon as you use a big SLR it get's scarier. I see that people are more afraid big cameras that looks professional.
So, I'm thinking about Leicas. They are small, and they don't look as scary as an SLR. They are harder to noticed, therefore easier to take candid pictures (a Rollei is very noticeable). They take 35mm film, and I don't want to get stuck with a medium format.
And of course, the quality. I want to buy a camera that I can use forever - that will stick with me wherever I go. A camera that takes great pictures (quality based) and that never get's outdated. And for that I think a Leica (as well as my Rollei) is perfect.

But of course, if you (or anyone else at this forum) believe that a Leica is NOT the camera for me - please let me know. And please tell me, what camera is!

Jon,

welcome to the forum. I'm happy to help you out any way I can, I just needed some assurance this help would actually contribute to anything, something your first posts did not get across.

Is there anybody in your college that owns a Leica? Ask to meet and discuss it, handle it and you'll know if your name is on the list!😉

from your earlier posts I read you will be using the Rolleiflex, but want to have another camera in your pocket as well. In that case, I would suggest an M2 with a 35mm Summaron lens. Or possibly a Voigtländer Color-Skopar, since it's small as well.

Happy to read you have found the DSLR is not the summit of camera-dom, the Rolleiflex is a beautiful tool and I bet you'll love the M2 even more in time!

No hard feelings from my side. 🙂

To tell you the truth, I don't know anyone that has a Leica. That's why I'm asking you guys.

In addition to thinking about the M2, I've been lately thinking about M6. I've been contacted by a guy that sell it for a reasonable price and it has a 28mm viewfinder.
But let's say that I get an M2, and after a few years I can afford another lens and that I go for a 28mm. Is there a lot of information you miss out in the viewfinder?

Thanks for your guys help. I really appreciate it.

Jon

 

[danmitch]

Jon

I think you would do well to try a Leica Rangefinder - in my earlier post I mentioned a few London dealers - if you visit Richard or Patrick at Aperture, they will happily "walk you through" the Leica system and take time to show you many bodies and lenses and explain the differences.

Even with great sites like Cameraquest, it is not easy to understand everything without a camera in your hands, even tougher if you have never handled a Leica.

I think it is good to try before you buy if possible, but while film Leicas may not now be the investment they once were, except for certain rarer models, you are unlikely to loose much if you decide to sell the equipment on.

What is your schedule for London?

Best - Dan

 

[ustedalen]

Dan

Yes, I would like to try the camera before I decide what to buy, that's why I'm kind of afraid to buy it over Ebay etc.
And yes, it's hard to understand the camera without having seen it, but I'm trying my best.

I didn't mean an investment in a way of earning money, but an investment in my future photography. If you understand?

I'm arriving in London Tuesday 28th and flying back home to Norway August 1th. The plan is to put London on the map for my European project.
The Norwegian government actually told people to reconsider going to Spain and Great Britain for the next couples of weeks because of the swine flu. Oh well!

Jon

 

[naql]

My M2 arrived today and all I can say is Wow! It is in great shape and I'm amazed at how smooth everything is on it. I wish I had bought one sooner.

 

[dfoo]

I would suggest an M4-p and 28mm lens. Furthermore, I would suggest NOT buying it in a camera shop. Especially a camera shop in a foreign country. I think the deals on this site are great, and you'll be buying from someone, in general, far more trustworthy than a shop.

 

[elshaneo]

Jon,

The Leica M2 was my very first rangefinder camera, and at that time I did use a Voigtlander LTM 28mm f/1.9 Ultron lens + LTM to M adapter with it, I use the whole viewfinder view although it was not that super accurate, but it was good enough for me ;-)

Nowadays I have the Leica M7, but I have to admit that I miss the Leica M2, I might buy another one again when the right time comes ;-)

In addition to thinking about the M2, I've been lately thinking about M6. I've been contacted by a guy that sell it for a reasonable price and it has a 28mm viewfinder.
But let's say that I get an M2, and after a few years I can afford another lens and that I go for a 28mm. Is there a lot of information you miss out in the viewfinder?

Jon