To return or not to...

[randomm]

Hi all,

I'm presented with this question (to return to seller or not to...) regarding an M2 bought two weeks ago from a reputable seller here in Europe. The camera is in fine condition, RF seems to be accurate, speeds just right, except... the frame spacing seems to be occasionally off. I've only developed two films so far but in the first one there was one larger gap than usual and in the second one two large gaps between frames.

My previous M experience is limited to a 1998 M6 classic, which works like clockwork, so I have not experienced this before. This is an early button rewind model, if that's relevant to my question. I'm mainly wondering if there is something that's seriously wrong with the winding mechanism with the M2... I don't mind the random extra spacing, but do mind if there is something just going to break apart any moment.

Do you think I should return the camera, or perhaps negotiate a discount. The seller is a top notch reputable Leica shop, unfortunately in a different country though, so there would be insured post involved and some cost I guess if returning.

 

[maddoc]

I had it happen with various M2 and M3 cameras, the take-up spool starts slipping on the shaft, especially when the film tension changes. These cameras are old and usually quite worn out so I was never really bothered about ...

 

[johannielscom]

Did you change lenses mid roll?

I thought the frame spacing on my M3 was getting scarily narrow, until somebody pointed out to me that the Super Angulon 21/4.0 I used actually produced much wider images due to the wide lens...

Wider lenses can stretch the 36mm image up to as much as 39mm I estimate and as a result frame spacing gets variable when you change lenses mid roll.

 

[randomm]

Did not change a lens where the gaps occur. The gap is exactly extra two perforations + the regular gap between frames. I wonder how that's possible...

 

[RFluhver]

So basically the individuals frames are still well-formed with no adverse impact on the image? Except that the frames are occasionally farther apart?

If that's the case, I'd keep the camera.

My own M2 cannot be pre-advanced. Because if I do, I get what I can only describe as "curtain lag" which means that the pics only come out half exposed. I think that's because something inside loosens while the film is pre-advanced. I think.

 

[Pherdinand]

sounds like NOT the takeup spool is slipping but the counter wheel maybe.
If takeup spool was slipping, frame spacing would get smaller than normal.

I would not worry about it. Is there a warranty for a few months, even better. If not maybe that is what you should negociate with that super reputable seller 😉

PS; Johan: how is THAT possible?? Frame size should be defined by the film gate i.e. the window in front of it, and not the image circle. Is the gate so far from the film that a lens that sends the light under a steep angle can really get 1-2 mm extra wide?

 

[randomm]

So basically the individuals frames are still well-formed with no adverse impact on the image? Except that the frames are occasionally farther apart?

If that's the case, I'd keep the camera.

That's exactly what's happening. Mind you its only happened couple of times, just wondering if I should be concerned about it and contact the seller.

 

[RFluhver]

Well, then, just try not think too much about it. Go out and shoot with this camera. Thing is, if you think too much about this problem, you'll just stress yourself out. And feel unhappy. You might even have sleepless nights over this. It's an unhealthy situation.

Fact is, based on your description, sounds like the problem isn't affecting the picture-taking process at all.

 

[Ljós]

Jani,

I do not agree with the RFFers who encourage you to just not worry. You wrote there sometimes were large gaps in between pictures, and that does not sound right, and in all probability will not get better over time, rather get worse.

It is true that M2-cameras are old by now... and it is true that many of them have seen a lot of film and are worn. But, a properly serviced M2 will have quite regular frame spacing.

So... I understand your dilemma, the camera is not broken, but not working perfectly either, and a trip to the seller will cost international postage... I would contact the seller and simply include a picture of one of the strips of film you developed, where the gaps can be seen. A reputable seller will make right by you, and you will then have a troublefree M2 for a long time.

My two cents 🙂
Greetings, Ljós

 

[shadowfox]

Trade it with a used M4-P.
No more take up spools to worry about.

 

[randomm]

Trade it with a used M4-P.
No more take up spools to worry about.

I must be in the minority who thinks that loading an M2 is, perhaps not faster, but more pleasurable than the quick take up spool of post M4-Ps: its just nice being able to push simultaneously at both spools and to get the film perforations straight onto the sprockets.

... or of alternatively I'm just bad at loading my M6!!

 

[Roger Hicks]

I must be in the minority who thinks that loading an M2 is, perhaps not faster, but more pleasurable than the quick take up spool of post M4-Ps: its just nice being able to push simultaneously at both spools and to get the film perforations straight onto the sprockets.

... or of alternatively I'm just bad at loading my M6!!

Pleasurable? I'm not sure I'd go that far. But equally, it's no worse, and I don't think it's bad to begin with. I've never understood people who whinge about how hard any Leica is to load. Yes, I've mis-loaded Leicas (and I've had most, from A to MP). But I've mis-loaded at least as many other cameras, and in the last 40+ years I've almost certainly put a lot more film through my Leicas than through all my other 35mm cameras put together.

Cheers,

R.

 

[250swb]

In recently buying a Leica IIIf and having to return three cameras within four weeks to 'reputable dealers' in the UK all I can say is each reputable dealer has their own standards for a working camera. Some say 'everything works', which is what yours does in a strict sense, some say 'recently serviced' but don't say which bit was serviced, some say 'untouched and mint' which means it will need a service any day now.

I would send it back, I have never had a Leica M that varied frame spacing by anything more than a millimeter or two. If you persist with it, and for instance scan your negs, then you only need it to be way out twice in six frames and you end up cutting your neg strips into smaller lengths than six frames just to fit them in a holder.

Steve

 

[randomm]

Okay, this is good advice, thanks Steve.

I also noticed another fault with it last night: the parallax correction in the framelines occasionally gets stuck so that it is "not correcting correctly". I can "fix" this by wiggling the frameline preview lever, but obviously its not very good like this and gets very tiredsome in regular use.

I think the camera is going back. I'll contact the seller.

 

[randomm]

Well, it turns out that the seller was every bit as accommodating as I thought they would be. I got a choice of exchanging the body for another one, returning the body for a full refund or getting a local repair at seller's expense. I chose the last option, as in this case I'll get the price of the CLA included in the cost of the body.

So the body is now in the fingers of Jukka from Foka (official importers of Leica gear to Finland). I should be hearing back from him next week - can't wait.

I think at this point I can say that the seller is the Leica Shop in Vienna, and at least so far can recommend them highly. Didn't want to bad mouth anyone ealier, thus omitted the seller info from the thread.

 

[Penzes]

s

PS; Johan: how is THAT possible?? Frame size should be defined by the film gate i.e. the window in front of it, and not the image circle. Is the gate so far from the film that a lens that sends the light under a steep angle can really get 1-2 mm extra wide?

I'm not Johan, but I observed the same with the Super Angulon 3,4. I assume the image circle of the Super-Angulon and the symmetrical construction of it is the reason for a wider exposed film. The spacing with the Super-Angulon is almost to small to be able to cut the Film properly.

 

[rogerzilla]

Any lens where the rear nodal point is close to the film will give narrow spacing. The CV 21/4 also does it. Essentially the film gate "mask" is far enough from the emulsion to allow oblique rays of light to sneak under it further than they would with a 35mm or 50mm lens.

The converse is also true - a 90mm lens gives slightly smaller frames if the rear nodal point is a long way forwards - try a type 1 Elmarit, which isn't even a telephoto; it's a lens head at the end of a very long tube.