james.liam
Well-known
Seen the same color shift issues off an M240 as the M9. Don’t know if it’s less pronounced but doubt it. That’s why Cosina redesigned its UWA lenses.
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Bill Blackwell
Leica M Shooter
You're well set up to find out, Raid, since you have both sensors. You just need to get your hands on the lens. I'd be curious to see what the actual results would be.
raid
Dad Photographer
Is anything lost when UWA lenses get redesigned for a digital sensor?
The Zeiss Hologon 16/8 was meant to be used with a film camera. Is a modern CV lens a better designed lens when both lenses are used on film cameras?
james.liam
Well-known
Good question. Same thought applies to the re-tweaked Leica 28 & 35 Summicrons as well as the 28 Elmarit. Don’t hear complaints from people shooting the 21 SEM on film.
Leica M9, 7Artisans 50mm F1.1 wide-open, focus at infinity, against a white sheet of paper. This lens is an extreme Sonnar- the rear element is so close to the image plane that it cannot be used on a Leica CL (verified first-hand) or M5 as it interferes with the Stalk type meter.
Lens coding turned off for both images.
Leica M Monochrom, same 50/1.1 7Artisans, wide-open, focus at infinity, against white sheet of paper.
I'm measuring very close to the same level of vignetting (2.5Stops) for both versions of the sensor. Much less than the 4.1 that was recorded on the Reeves website for the BSI CMOS Sony A7-RII.
I've used the Jupiter-12 on the M9 and it did not exhibit color shift, the rear element is very close to the image plane.
Ultra-Wide-Angle lenses design for digital sensors will have more of a retro-focus optical formula than those designed for film. The formula is more complex, the lenses are bigger.
Lens coding turned off for both images.
Leica M Monochrom, same 50/1.1 7Artisans, wide-open, focus at infinity, against white sheet of paper.
I'm measuring very close to the same level of vignetting (2.5Stops) for both versions of the sensor. Much less than the 4.1 that was recorded on the Reeves website for the BSI CMOS Sony A7-RII.
I've used the Jupiter-12 on the M9 and it did not exhibit color shift, the rear element is very close to the image plane.
Ultra-Wide-Angle lenses design for digital sensors will have more of a retro-focus optical formula than those designed for film. The formula is more complex, the lenses are bigger.
raid
Dad Photographer
I wonder if it simply the CMOS sensor or is it also the use of the SONY. What is the same lens had been used with an M10? Will the vignetting be also as bad?
My non-retro focus wide angle lenses cannot be mounted on my M cameras.
My non-retro focus wide angle lenses cannot be mounted on my M cameras.
james.liam
Well-known
How close to the sensor does the Hologon rear element get?
shawn
Veteran
Thanks for the pics, I don't have that lens or I'd try the same on my M240.
Here is a 50mm f1.5 Nokton (M mount, first version) wide open on the M240 measuring exposure at the center and at the extreme corner.
And now the same lens, on the Sony A7RII. Both cameras at ISO 200, wide open and 1/1000 of a second shutter.
Shawn
Here is a 50mm f1.5 Nokton (M mount, first version) wide open on the M240 measuring exposure at the center and at the extreme corner.
And now the same lens, on the Sony A7RII. Both cameras at ISO 200, wide open and 1/1000 of a second shutter.
Shawn
Raid- as you have an M10 and an M9, would be interesting to turn lens coding OFF on both cameras and look at the images from the same lenses.
Well, not that interesting- these are with out a doubt very boring images...
I spent the early 1980s doing measurements of early digital sensors. It was new, and was nice to be paid to do it, and got to write all your own code to process the imagery. I still get paid to write code, but not for sensors anymore. If I need a break from writing device drivers for custom hardware- might add some code to plot out intensity values from the DNG files for the M9 and M Monochrom. I wrote my own processing code for them.
Well, not that interesting- these are with out a doubt very boring images...
I spent the early 1980s doing measurements of early digital sensors. It was new, and was nice to be paid to do it, and got to write all your own code to process the imagery. I still get paid to write code, but not for sensors anymore. If I need a break from writing device drivers for custom hardware- might add some code to plot out intensity values from the DNG files for the M9 and M Monochrom. I wrote my own processing code for them.
On RED, on the M240: Max 5280 Min 169: That is almost 5 F-Stops of vignetting. I have the same lens- the LTM Nokton 50/1.5 Aspheric. It just does not do this on my cameras.
I'm "supposed" to be on leave... Spent today writing device drivers... Maybe I'll add the plot routines to my DNG processing codes for the M9 and M Monochrom. Much easier to have a 2D plot of the values across the diagonals and center lines of the image to see the fall-off. The M240 uses Big-Endian DNG. The M9 and M Monochrom use little-endian. Much easier to process on an Intel processor.
shawn
Veteran
It doesn't on my camera either. Looking at min/max for the whole sensor isn't valid. A couple of specs of dust on the sensor would make those values have a wide difference and not be due to vignetting.
Looking at the red the EV is about 0.3 in the center and just under -1 in the corner. A little over a stop of vignetting.
On the Sony it is aboug .5 in the center and about -1.66 in the corner. Same technology, same sensor size but more vignetting on the Sony. Due to the sensor stack.
Shawn
The Leica M240 uses (edited) a Raised/High microlens array, and uses a custom architecture to move the light sensitive material closer to the surface of the sensor. This was done specifically to improve performance of light coming in off-nadir.
https://the.me/the-leica-m-max-sensor-explained/
Sensor architecture and the microlens array plays an important roll in performance. This is in addition to the IR filter stack. Off-nadir performance of the full-frame KAF-18500 is superior to the 1.3x crop KAF-10500 used in the M8. I believe sensor thinning techniques were used to improve performance.
https://the.me/the-leica-m-max-sensor-explained/
Sensor architecture and the microlens array plays an important roll in performance. This is in addition to the IR filter stack. Off-nadir performance of the full-frame KAF-18500 is superior to the 1.3x crop KAF-10500 used in the M8. I believe sensor thinning techniques were used to improve performance.
shawn
Veteran
According to this site the M9 used offset microlenses and Leica got rid of them on the CMOS sensors as the new microlens shape and thinner sensor made the offset unneeded and getting rid of it allowed the camera to be able to work with both M and R type lenses better.
http://gmpphoto.blogspot.com/2016/12/the-future-of-sensor-technology-at-leica.html
Yes, I completely agree that it is the entire implementation that is important. That was my point, to just say that CCD or CMOS is "better" for wide angle is over simplifying it all.
Shawn
Kodak offered most of their CCD sensors in color and monochrome long before the M Monochrom was offered. They were not more expensive than the color versions. My custom made DCS200ir was an extra $4000 over the regular model.
Has anyone done tests on the Kolari modified Sony cameras? If the difference is just the stack, then these modified cameras should not show the vignetting of the standard cameras.
The offset microlens array of the KAF-18500 is very efficient at collecting light coming in at nadir, compares favorably with the KAF-16803 with standard microlens arrays.
I guess that boring a hole in a lens cap and putting the opaque disk from my Nikon F Photomic Bullseye would give some measure of collection efficiency with respect to grazing angle.
Has anyone done tests on the Kolari modified Sony cameras? If the difference is just the stack, then these modified cameras should not show the vignetting of the standard cameras.
The offset microlens array of the KAF-18500 is very efficient at collecting light coming in at nadir, compares favorably with the KAF-16803 with standard microlens arrays.
I guess that boring a hole in a lens cap and putting the opaque disk from my Nikon F Photomic Bullseye would give some measure of collection efficiency with respect to grazing angle.
steveyork
Well-known
Voigtlander has such nice offerings these days. Too bad I don't shoot a 50 much anymore.
james.liam
Well-known
Some of the beat recent offerings are elsewhere in the FL range; 2/35, 3,5/21, 1,4/21, 1,5/75. Take your pick. All of them are a better long-term choice than TT7 alternatives; they are indeed more expensive but should prove more durable and have a resale market if you choose to do so. A $150 lens has little residual value on resale when new samples are abundant. Only time will tell if the Chinese offerings will last over time.
cboy
Well-known
I agree i purchased my vm35 f1.4 new a few years ago and sold it recently for more than i purchased new. Lol
I doubt the MIC lenses will ever gain in resale value; i guess only if a new manufacturer comes out with a line of lenses that has Qc assurance from the time you open the box. If only we compiled the horror stories of people getting lenses that were less than were bargained for or not satisfied. You see many in ebay trying to sell off their MiC lenses
AnthonyCroninPhotos
Newbie
I ordered mine here. They are the only ones in Europe as far as I know. Still no details on Lens Hoods or Filter Sizes, I've been told to expect delivery at End Jan/Early Feb.
Jo Geier
Mint & Rare
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pushto1600
Certified Camera Owner
Adorama just started preorders on their site, should I buy from them or cameraquest if I want my lens earlier? Or should I just wait until the thing officially is in stock.
Ccoppola82
Well-known
I ordered mine from cameraquest. I’ve learned a great deal on this forum and the least I can do is give Mr. Gandy my business when he carries something I want
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