VueScan; advise please

[Sparrow]

I’ve just been reading through a few old threads trying to see if this is OK, when I scan in tiff I’m getting a histogram that’s well short of the full width of the scale, like this.


tiff straight off the scanner

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3197/2286108462_92068d0de5_o.jpg


then when I’ve set levels and curves I get this, the histogram looks a bit spiky.

jpg output for the printer

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2227/2285322645_2df456648e_o.jpg

these are full-res crops

what do you think? Is this what I should expect?

It’s a dImage 5400, set to XP2 scanning XP2 in this case. The negs look OK if a bit contrasty, (first time I’ve used it and I mistakenly put a yellow filter on)


PS the links are the big versions

 

[Mike Richards]

Is your original tiff scan 16 bits?

 

[Sparrow]

Yes, 16 bit, single pass,
I’m new to vuescan, I’ve just had to switch to VueScan software, the Minolta software I had been using was just too fragile on the new OSX, now I’m faced with a learning curve that I don’t need

 

[Hates_]

I've always thought the spikes are okay, its when you get gaps in the histogram as it trys to level out that it's a problem. If you're scanning 16-bit, I wouldn't worry.

 

[Toby]

You should be able to get a wider tonal range than that from the scan.Have you tried getting vuescan to do multiple passes or fiddling with the white/black point? The biggest problem with vuesacn is decipering the user interface

 

[Sparrow]

I can’t see how to set the white and black points when it’s set to .tiff, that’s what’s making me uncomfortable; that and the image being offset, from looking at the neg I would expect it to be more central

 

[Bob Michaels]

You set the black and white endpoints by settings under the color tab. It's very simple and unrelated to the format of the output.

It may help you to take a look at each of the adjustments by skimming over the manual on Hamrick's site. And remember that each of those tab setting is independent and unlinked.

 

[Sparrow]

You set the black and white endpoints by settings under the color tab. It's very simple and unrelated to the format of the output.

It may help you to take a look at each of the adjustments by skimming over the manual on Hamrick's site. And remember that each of those tab setting is independent and unlinked.

I’ll check that out tonight, I didn’t think I got that when I selected tiff. and I did read through the website before posting this.
Perhaps I was suffering Option Fatigue, too many digital choices for my analogue brain
:bang:

 

[Bob Michaels]

Sparrow: I forgot to mention that there is a selection at the bottom of each tab asking you if you want more or fewer options. If you don't select more options, you won't see the black and white end point settings.

The good news is that Vuescan does an excellent job at the default settings. It really is not necessary to tweak them in most cases.

 

[mfogiel]

I have found, that using the Tmax 400 D76 0.4 settings normally works best as profile for B&W, producing a wider histogram, anyway, the important thing is that neither edge of your histogram is going over the scale

 

[craygc]

You should be able to get a wider tonal range than that from the scan.Have you tried getting vuescan to do multiple passes or fiddling with the white/black point? The biggest problem with vuesacn is decipering the user interface

Setting the black and white points wont change your tonal range from the scan as its a post processing function. The issue (and I wont say problem) is that a C41 neg has a density range of around 2.0 and the scanner is probably close to double that in capability so you get what youre getting - slides have a greater density range and these scanners are designed to be capable of scanning them so not much you can do. Looking at your histogram you dont have any clipping on either end so multi-passing isnt going to do much for you in that area. Makes me think about testing what happens with a Nikon scanner if you turn the gain down on the CCD ...hmmmm!

As others have mention scan in 16 bit mode and make ALL post processing changes in 16-bit mode before going to 8-bit - if at all - or printing. Your scan histogram more or less has the black point set with the white point way off. This is certainly the better way to scan a neg and Vuescan has the ability to make all scans do this but takes a lot more explaining in terms of how and why. See here: B&W Scanning with Vuescan

Just fix the white and black points later. Tools such as PS do a much better job in controlling exactly where you set these and can show you the impact on the pixels.

I have found, that using the Tmax 400 D76 0.4 settings normally works best as profile for B&W, producing a wider histogram, ...

But again, this is just a post processing function. It has no impact on what the scanner captures so its really neither here nor there unless you dont really intend to post process further. And B&W always needs some post processing.... 🙂

 

[Sparrow]

Thanks Craig, for the explanation and the link, the mist is beginning to lift.

I just did some trials with levels in PS and I can see what’s going on, I’ll do some testing on a variety of negs have them all printed and see what works best.

Regards

 

[robertdfeinman]

All the advice given so far should help. I would also suggest leaving the black and white points in Vuescan at 0. As long as there is no clipping at either end the scan will have all the data you can capture.

You should also save as 16 bit TIFF. The one thing I would suggest is fixing the contrast in Photoshop with the curves adjustment and not using the simpler tools. they don't provide enough control.

First move the end points of the curve inward while keeping the curve straight to a point where you have expanded the contrast range as far as you wish.
You can check on the histogram.

Then adjust the curve shape to give the type of local contrast you desire, in many cases this means a slight "S" curve shape to boost the midrange and prevent the highlights from blowing out. After you have done all this you can flatten the image and convert to 8 bit for output.

 

[Sparrow]

My normal practice with the Minolta software, arrived at through trial and error, was:

• 16 bit single pass scan at 5400dpi, with all the corrections off
• Open in PS add a levels layer to set black and white.
• Add a curves layer and adjust contrast to taste.
• Save that file as my archive copy.
• Then flatten, convert to 8 bit, assignee printer’s profile and save as a jpg for the printer.

That produces a 12x18 print at 402dpi (what the lab requires) without having to disrupt the image at all.

I am guessing what I need to add to that workflow with VueScan is; fixing the black point prior to scanning to ensure I get the maximum shadow detail. Or the other way round with a slide.
Any comments?

regards

 

[robertdfeinman]

If you are happy with your present workflow then why change it. As I said above there is no reason to set the black and white points in Vuescan, especially if you are going to change them anyway in Photoshop.

I still dislike the levels tool because you can't see what it is doing to the overall contrast. It does have the benefit that you can view the clipping visually if you hold down the Alt key when you move the black and white triangles. I sometimes do this, but just note the values where clipping occurs and then cancel the levels dialog and use these values in the curves instead.

This way you can control the ends and the middle values all at once. I don't know what sort of output you are using, but jpeg is usually not the best choice, unless you set it to very minimal compression.

It is true that Vuescan has lots of adjustments, but most long time users just set it to produce a scan with minimal adjustment. The adjustments appeal to those who want to get a final image without using an editing program.

 

[Sparrow]

Hi Robert

If you read through the link Craig supplied you will see why I’m considering fixing the black point

I’ll test curves + levels vs. curves only, and see if there is any image degradation. I prefer to set levels first as the curves layer I apply has a per-set duotone as my starting point and the levels layer keeps its starting points constant.

Sadly I don’t have a choice with the jpg the lab’s printers (Agfa D-lab 2) require them, and a max of 20mb, the tiffs are over 200

Thanks

 

[pbphoto]

Any reflections, mirrors, glass, point light sources, light bulbs... in the image will cause Vuescan to produce a histogram like yours. I agree with others that Vuescan is not the greatest tool for image manipulation, but I like to get my scans fairly close "out of the box" before doing final curves and sharpening tweaks in PS. In your sample scan, you need to increase the white point under the color tab.

I'm not familiar with your scanner. For XP2, set Vuescan to "color-negative", 64bit RGBI scans, infrared-clean to medium, no sharpening or grain removal, then fiddle with the points and curves under the color tab. Auto-levels is a good start. generic-color-negative is a good. Set your monitor and scanner profiles if you have them. Set the desired output space that will get tagged to your files. Get it close, then save the scan as a tagged jpg or tiff for final editing within PS.

Good luck,
paul