What Future for M43?

[Godfrey]

Great shot, considering the circumstances.
Completely rained and clouds here (south Puget Sound). My longest prime is a 200mm f5 OM Zuiko. Move it to f8 and adapted to my EM10 it does a credible job, but of course 200 is 200, that means at the image plane the moon is 1.8mm diameter. That 600 Sigma looks it does a pretty good job for a mirror lens.

Just remembered I do have an ancient 2.4 inch refractor, 700mm for f11.7
It’s a typical air spaced doublet and one of these days I’ll have to mount the M4:3 to the prime focus just to see how it does.

Thanks! I'm pretty amazed at the job this Sigma can do, once you know how to work around its shortcomings. You need a very sturdy tripod, IBIS off, and patience to get the focusing just right.

On the other hand, and a digression from the focus of this thread but on the subject of amazing performance, I was wandering around with the Hasselblad 500CM fitted with an ancient (1967) Sonnar 150mm lens and the new CFVII 50c digital back last week. I was sitting outdoors eating my lunch and saw the quarter Moon in the sky. "Hmm, I wonder how big a disk that would make?" So I stuck the camera on the tripod and snapped a shot.

Looking at the unedited capture, I said, "Hmm, a bit of water in the air, but there seems to be some detail in there. Let's adjust the settings to suit the Moon best.

"Hmm. Not bad, but darn that Moon is a tiny disk. Seems to be some detail in it ... I wonder." So I cropped down to the pixelation limit...

and ... OMG! ... That's one helluva sharp lens! 😀

Sorry for the digression from mFT stuff, but I'm still blown away by that example of lens quality.

G

 

[farlymac]

I recently purchased a Panasonic DC-LX100M2 for several reasons. Full manual controls including zoom and focus, form factor, compactness. I got it without having the opportunity to actually handle one in a store, so it was a little surprising to me when it actually turned out to be smaller than my old Nikon P7700.

So I got a half-case to bulk it up a little. Then a hood and cap that I can handle better without it flying off every chance it gets. Then I got a wrist strap for just in case. These little improvements have made it a better handling camera.

It has many things that I like, namely the dials and controls in all the right places, a well thought out Quick Menu system for fast changes on the run, a really nice EVF, easy ratio changing, and three monochrome modes.

I'm still working on the issues of what I don't like about it, such as the smeared backgrounds, its size, short zoom length, and could really use a flip screen. Granted, these are not deal breakers, just things that are limitations.

I'm a little low on ink right now so I've limited myself to just a few test 4x6s, but they look better than what I got from the P7700. We'll see what it does on larger paper later on.

It's not what could be considered a perfect camera, but then there really isn't one. Yet. It hasn't made my photography any worse. It's kind of a well rounded unit able to capture images in several ways which is kind of the way I use a camera. I might be out shooting landscapes and come across a car show, then later on walking the streets of a small town capturing architectural details.

I use this camera like I would any of my DSLR's. I take photos of whatever catches my eye. The only thing that holds me back is I can't change the lens for those compressed long distance shots I see every so often. But then it's better than any of the film P&S cameras I used to run around with.

I don't know where M4/3 is headed. I can't say that I will follow. Panasonic has come a long way from the TZ-3 that was my very first digital camera. If all my other cameras disappeared tomorrow, and all I was left with was the LX100M2, I'd probably consider it a good place to start over, but not what I'd want as an only camera. For right now though it can help me define what I want to be as a photographer. I also feel like there is no camera out there that I cannot get a good photo from (unless it's just plain worn out), so I'll enjoy this one like I have all the others, but I'd be happier if it was just a bit larger.

PF

 

[Ko.Fe.]

This is definitely my main draw to m43 - they can be set up to be the natural successor to a LTM rangefinder set. Pairing a Pen-F or GX7/9 with any one of the 3rd party manual focus primes provides a perfect setup for someone like me who prefers small size and has no need for AF. For less than $1k USD you can put together a decent quality set of manual focus primes in the 35mm equiv focal lengths of 24/35/50/70/90

I got into small size trouble yesterday. Usually it is smaller the better to me.
But yesterday was walking in gloves day. On iced paths and with crazy dog on leash.

I was trying to AF with some knock-off lens and it was failing AF. I made attempt to switch focus to MF and instead deleted all images...

So, yesterday, I was trying some free applications for deleted files recovery. And it worked.

It is not perfectionists photo. Nor I'm exposure perfectionist. I like small, not expensive cameras and this photo reminds me my cheap C-41 film in home developer and quick scan.

I think, M43 is great replacement for cheap film and cheap film cameras and lenses. But more advanced than any mobile phone is.

 

[agentlossing]

I recently purchased a Panasonic DC-LX100M2 for several reasons. Full manual controls including zoom and focus, form factor, compactness. I got it without having the opportunity to actually handle one in a store, so it was a little surprising to me when it actually turned out to be smaller than my old Nikon P7700.

So I got a half-case to bulk it up a little. Then a hood and cap that I can handle better without it flying off every chance it gets. Then I got a wrist strap for just in case. These little improvements have made it a better handling camera.

It has many things that I like, namely the dials and controls in all the right places, a well thought out Quick Menu system for fast changes on the run, a really nice EVF, easy ratio changing, and three monochrome modes.

I'm still working on the issues of what I don't like about it, such as the smeared backgrounds, its size, short zoom length, and could really use a flip screen. Granted, these are not deal breakers, just things that are limitations.

I'm a little low on ink right now so I've limited myself to just a few test 4x6s, but they look better than what I got from the P7700. We'll see what it does on larger paper later on.

It's not what could be considered a perfect camera, but then there really isn't one. Yet. It hasn't made my photography any worse. It's kind of a well rounded unit able to capture images in several ways which is kind of the way I use a camera. I might be out shooting landscapes and come across a car show, then later on walking the streets of a small town capturing architectural details.

I use this camera like I would any of my DSLR's. I take photos of whatever catches my eye. The only thing that holds me back is I can't change the lens for those compressed long distance shots I see every so often. But then it's better than any of the film P&S cameras I used to run around with.

I don't know where M4/3 is headed. I can't say that I will follow. Panasonic has come a long way from the TZ-3 that was my very first digital camera. If all my other cameras disappeared tomorrow, and all I was left with was the LX100M2, I'd probably consider it a good place to start over, but not what I'd want as an only camera. For right now though it can help me define what I want to be as a photographer. I also feel like there is no camera out there that I cannot get a good photo from (unless it's just plain worn out), so I'll enjoy this one like I have all the others, but I'd be happier if it was just a bit larger.

PF

The LX100m2 is a really, really interesting camera. I handled the original LX100 sometime after it came out, and I found the build quality and controls to be really excellent (save for the power zoom. I'll never get used to those, I think, but it is what it is, no way around it). What let that version down a bit was the cropped 16MP sensor. The 20MP sensor, however, I know from the GX9 and its quality is really good, plus the GX9-level image processing is great. Standard JPEG and L Monochrome D styles are both so good that I want them back in my photography, after getting rid of the GX9.

I'll be interested to hear how you get on with the LX100m2. I seem to have seen some reports of imperfect focus, or mushy details, at further focus distance, but for every one I read there were plenty of people saying they didn't experience this. Seems like maybe the lenses can suffer from some sample variation, or else something else is amiss. I guess if you can, when you buy this camera, you look for a return policy and do some tests as soon as you get it.

M4/3 isn't the best at anything... but it's reliable, and fast, and relatively inexpensive. Plus, the LX100m2 is honestly a camera that shouldn't have happened. It's too photographer-focused, too well thought out, too unique, to be the offspring of a giant tech company... save for the fact that Panasonic has always gone above and beyond with their M4/3 cameras to make them photographer-friendly. Like the GM5, I think this will be a cult camera for quite a while.

 

[jsrockit]

I enjoyed looking at this one... 🙂

 

[Ko.Fe.]

I enjoyed looking at this one... 🙂

Thank you. 🙂 Today is going to be ice and rain walk. But crazy dog doesn't like rain.

The LX100m2 is a really, really interesting camera.

IMO. It is missing some features which not allowing to call it as photographer oriented.

First, who knows why it is needed, on the lens aspect ratio. This is last thing to look at all the time on the lens barrel. Kind of waste of space to look cool. While it is obviously visible on the screen and in EVF.

Second, exposure compensation. This is soo old and next to irrelevant with modern sensors and metering. Instead, manual focus in meters wheel, in addition to focal length scale would make it ready for all camera. It will make this camera much more street oriented than any GR.

Without those two it is DSLR half-replacement with obvious less IQ, just advanced P&S with cool looking numbers on dials.

More like to make you feel you are photographer, rather than trying to be one. At least in my opinion about cameras and lenses. All AF (this camera is about) is done well without those analog wheels. Olympus did it well. And tap focus works accurately on the phones already IMO.

It is real pity to me. Because to me the D-Lux 7 is best Leica ever made. Better than made in Germany quality/longevity and no rip-off on made in China batteries. And no braking battery latch with falling out spring, which is German X quality signature.

 

[emraphoto]

it has distilled down to a very short list on my end. does it make sense ergonomically, is it affordable and how can I streamline the amount of gear I must carry?

sensor sizes, uber high ISO capability and massive megapickle counts are of little interest and i have a pretty laisse affair approach to the technical end of things. content is everything.

for me, m43 is a perfect blend of performance, size and affordability. i suspect i am not that unique. for a lot of folks cameras like the EM-5, EM-10, G85 etc. are very appealing. fast, capable, look good and affordable.

 

[emraphoto]

Looks like it is far from slowing down.

I don't think here is any other system with this wide, small and affordable 20mm FOV lens.

https://www.dpreview.com/news/88323...m-f-2-zero-d-mft-lens-is-just-four-oreos-tall

Pen F, this lens and Oly 17 1.8 are tempting update from my trusty E-PL1 and 15/8 pancake. Small camera, tiny, yet fast lenses with normal focus scale.

My compact Canon RP is also good on exposure metering, not so bad for colors and BW, but Canon seems to have zero interest in small and wide lenses for RF mount. They might eventually cough out 40 2.8 RF, but it is not my focal length.

I use 2 Pen F's and really enjoy using them. screen turned around and manual control. I purchase the Laowa 17mm for the DOF scale on the lens and the manual aperture control. rear dial set for ISO and front for shutter. i even shoot jpegs 😉

 

[Ko.Fe.]

...content is everything...

I use 2 Pen F's and really enjoy using them. screen turned around and manual control. I purchase the Laowa 17mm for the DOF scale on the lens and the manual aperture control. rear dial set for ISO and front for shutter. i even shoot jpegs 😉

Makes sense!

In December 2019 it was small local convention in Toronto about photo cameras been video cameras.
I was not into this, but wanted to see photo cameras. Sony booth was very busy. Canon was sort of busy. Nikon ... OK.
FujiFilm and Olympus ... crickets.

But from all photo cameras I have tried at those booths most pleasing was Pen F.

I like Canon RP for better indoors capabilities, but M43 is so much fun outdoors, where I don't need very high ISO.

 

[agentlossing]

Thank you. 🙂 Today is going to be ice and rain walk. But crazy dog doesn't like rain.



IMO. It is missing some features which not allowing to call it as photographer oriented.

First, who knows why it is needed, on the lens aspect ratio. This is last thing to look at all the time on the lens barrel. Kind of waste of space to look cool. While it is obviously visible on the screen and in EVF.

Second, exposure compensation. This is soo old and next to irrelevant with modern sensors and metering. Instead, manual focus in meters wheel, in addition to focal length scale would make it ready for all camera. It will make this camera much more street oriented than any GR.

Without those two it is DSLR half-replacement with obvious less IQ, just advanced P&S with cool looking numbers on dials.

More like to make you feel you are photographer, rather than trying to be one. At least in my opinion about cameras and lenses. All AF (this camera is about) is done well without those analog wheels. Olympus did it well. And tap focus works accurately on the phones already IMO.

It is real pity to me. Because to me the D-Lux 7 is best Leica ever made. Better than made in Germany quality/longevity and no rip-off on made in China batteries. And no braking battery latch with falling out spring, which is German X quality signature.

I'm confused. You said it was missing features but then went on to list features you don't like. Personally the aspect ratio switch is one of the best features, having a dedicated way to switch without digging into menus for me would be a major incentive to compose more creatively.

I don't know what you mean about the exposure compensation, but surely you know M4/3 sensors still need for highlights to be fairly carefully managed. Obviously you could do that by moving the direct controls, but if you're on auto-ISO, then the manual exposure comp dial is a good thing.

I really can't agree with anything you said. It's all personal preference and comfort level with process, obviously, but we seem to be looking at the camera from two very different points of view.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

I had no idea some needs to switch aspect ratio all the time.
First time reading about it. I like full sensor size. Not some crop from it.
But been not agree, because don't understand, I totally agree with 😀.

I'm confused. You said it was missing features but then went on to list features you don't like. Personally the aspect ratio switch is one of the best features, having a dedicated way to switch without digging into menus for me would be a major incentive to compose more creatively.

I don't know what you mean about the exposure compensation, but surely you know M4/3 sensors still need for highlights to be fairly carefully managed. Obviously you could do that by moving the direct controls, but if you're on auto-ISO, then the manual exposure comp dial is a good thing.

I really can't agree with anything you said. It's all personal preference and comfort level with process, obviously, but we seem to be looking at the camera from two very different points of view.

 

[zuiko85]

Thanks! I'm pretty amazed at the job this Sigma can do, once you know how to work around its shortcomings. You need a very sturdy tripod, IBIS off, and patience to get the focusing just right.

On the other hand, and a digression from the focus of this thread but on the subject of amazing performance, I was wandering around with the Hasselblad 500CM fitted with an ancient (1967) Sonnar 150mm lens and the new CFVII 50c digital back last week. I was sitting outdoors eating my lunch and saw the quarter Moon in the sky. "Hmm, I wonder how big a disk that would make?" So I stuck the camera on the tripod and snapped a shot.

Looking at the unedited capture, I said, "Hmm, a bit of water in the air, but there seems to be some detail in there. Let's adjust the settings to suit the Moon best.

"Hmm. Not bad, but darn that Moon is a tiny disk. Seems to be some detail in it ... I wonder." So I cropped down to the pixelation limit...

and ... OMG! ... That's one helluva sharp lens! 😀

Sorry for the digression from mFT stuff, but I'm still blown away by that example of lens quality.

G

No need to wonder about final image plane moon size. The rule of thumb is the moon's diameter at the image plane is .9mm per 100mm of focal length. So; 1.5 X .9 is 1.35mm moon diameter at sensor. Pretty doggone amazing final image I'd say! (You can figure how many pixels that would span at your leisure.)
The oldest lens I have that would be easy to mount on my EM10 would be a Tamron preset 135mm f4.5 with an m42 mount from before T4 or even T2 mounts, came out about 1957. Will have to mount it up just for kicks.

 

[agentlossing]

I had no idea some needs to switch aspect ratio all the time.
First time reading about it. I like full sensor size. Not some crop from it.
But been not agree, because don't understand, I totally agree with 😀.

For me, I don't like 4:3, so when I shoot M4/3 I'm used to losing resolution by selecting a different aspect ratio. The LX100m2 gains back more pixels on the sides you're expanding when you select a different aspect ratio. This makes that switch a legitimate creative tool.

 

[farlymac]

The LX100m2 is a really, really interesting camera. I handled the original LX100 sometime after it came out, and I found the build quality and controls to be really excellent (save for the power zoom. I'll never get used to those, I think, but it is what it is, no way around it). What let that version down a bit was the cropped 16MP sensor. The 20MP sensor, however, I know from the GX9 and its quality is really good, plus the GX9-level image processing is great. Standard JPEG and L Monochrome D styles are both so good that I want them back in my photography, after getting rid of the GX9.

I'll be interested to hear how you get on with the LX100m2. I seem to have seen some reports of imperfect focus, or mushy details, at further focus distance, but for every one I read there were plenty of people saying they didn't experience this. Seems like maybe the lenses can suffer from some sample variation, or else something else is amiss. I guess if you can, when you buy this camera, you look for a return policy and do some tests as soon as you get it.

M4/3 isn't the best at anything... but it's reliable, and fast, and relatively inexpensive. Plus, the LX100m2 is honestly a camera that shouldn't have happened. It's too photographer-focused, too well thought out, too unique, to be the offspring of a giant tech company... save for the fact that Panasonic has always gone above and beyond with their M4/3 cameras to make them photographer-friendly. Like the GM5, I think this will be a cult camera for quite a while.

Here's what I've gotten so far (that I have posted, more to come later)


https://flic.kr/s/aHsmRRUjgY
https://flic.kr/s/aHsmRWjbgG
https://flic.kr/s/aHsmS3xsVN
https://flic.kr/s/aHsmS7hJmN
https://flic.kr/s/aHsmSvyom7
https://flic.kr/s/aHsmT77Mwi
https://flic.kr/s/aHsmTaasoN


Let me know what you think.


PF

 

[Godfrey]

No need to wonder about final image plane moon size. The rule of thumb is the moon's diameter at the image plane is .9mm per 100mm of focal length. So; 1.5 X .9 is 1.35mm moon diameter at sensor. Pretty doggone amazing final image I'd say! (You can figure how many pixels that would span at your leisure.)
The oldest lens I have that would be easy to mount on my EM10 would be a Tamron preset 135mm f4.5 with an m42 mount from before T4 or even T2 mounts, came out about 1957. Will have to mount it up just for kicks.

Good rule of thumb! The Moon in that image comes out to about 260 pixels, which translates to about 1.38 mm on the sensor. Very close. 🙂

I've mounted my uncoated 1939 Zeiss Sonnar 40mm f/2 (from the Berning Robot II of that vintage) using a funky collection of mount adapters onto both APS-C and Micro-FourThirds cameras. It produces nice image quality, as long as you avoid specular reflections and such.

G

 

[DougK]

I've been thinking about getting a new digital camera and I hadn't really considered anything but full-frame and leaning towards a full-frame DSLR. This thread definitely has me rethinking that stance and seriously considering a Pen F with a normal lens.

 

[Bingley]

Some Pen F photos, taken with the Zuiko 17mm f1.8 lens...

Before social distancing... by Steve Macfarlane, on Flickr

Lines... by Steve Macfarlane, on Flickr

17th Street by Steve Macfarlane, on Flickr

 

[Bingley]

After the ceremony... by Steve Macfarlane, on Flickr


Union Station by Steve Macfarlane, on Flickr

 

[Bingley]

Taos Pueblo by Steve Macfarlane, on Flickr

Regarding Delacroix by Steve Macfarlane, on Flickr

Meringue by Steve Macfarlane, on Flickr

Boulangerie by Steve Macfarlane, on Flickr

 

[Archiver]

M4/3 isn't the best at anything... but it's reliable, and fast, and relatively inexpensive. Plus, the LX100m2 is honestly a camera that shouldn't have happened. It's too photographer-focused, too well thought out, too unique, to be the offspring of a giant tech company... save for the fact that Panasonic has always gone above and beyond with their M4/3 cameras to make them photographer-friendly. Like the GM5, I think this will be a cult camera for quite a while.

It's likely that the LX100 was developed in conjunction with Leica with the intention of creating a Leica-branded version. When you think about it, no other Panasonic has the same kind of features/design as the LX100/II. No dedicated shutter speed dial or aperture dial, no dedicated EV comp dial. These features are closer to what you'd find in a Leica X or Q, so it would make sense for Panasonic to make this camera with that in mind.