Where is the Bessa Digital?

[Prest_400]

- an Fuji X camera + the SP-2 combination is very expensive, the "better camera only" option would be much cheaper
- the X / SP-2 combination is more inconvienent compared the the 'one camera only' option: The charme of instant film photography is to have the image directly out of the camera (without need for additional equipment).

Cheers, Jan

Yes and no, the purpose is different I'd say. With digital there is the master file and the Instant printer works as a nice novelty and to give away.
Instant camera is more free flowing.

Like who and what are they using to print, Ilfochrome? I haven't seen this trend at all.

That is the thing, interneg? Hybrid C-Prints for sure. Peter Lik et al must do that on a polyester substrate like Fujiflex.

Perhaps it's possible to have carbro, tricolor pigment addition or something of that spirit. There was a lab in Germany doing that IIRC. Excellent archival qualities and maybe color too... No cheap prices!

 

[daveleo]

Yes, you are missing the following very important aspects..........

Cheers, Jan

Got it. Thanks.

 

[shawn]

A friend dropped in last weekend with his X-Pro2 and four cases of instax prints that he made via Wi-Fi to his little travel size Fuji Instax printer.

Fuji needs to make an Instax Wide printer....

Shawn

 

[daveleo]

Fuji needs to make an Instax Wide printer....

Shawn

Yes I didn't realize there are 2 instax film sizes. Couldn't understand the discussion here.

 

[HHPhoto]

I await your announcements of new film camera production as they are announced.

In the last two years, we've already had several new film cameras.
For example:
- Leica M-A
- Fuji Instax mini 90 neo classic
- Fuji Instax Wide 300 EX
- Lomography Instant Automat
- Mint Instantflex TL 70
- Intrepid 4x5", soon a 8x10" will follow
- Impossible I-1
- Leica Sofort
- Harman Titan
- Ilford Obscura
- complete new ONDU camera line
- complete new NOPO camera line
- complete new LeRouge camera line
- some large format cameras from several manufacturers I've forgotten (there are more than 20 different manufacturers of large format cameras).

Cheers, Jan

 

[squirrel$$$bandit]

Mr. K has never liked digital cameras, so its unlikely there will ever be a digital Bessa. Considering the collapsing of the digital camera market the last few years, maybe the market is proving Mr. K right. Still, never say never.

How many of us shoot digital now, after saying ten years ago that we only liked film cameras? And meanwhile Mr. K has decided to produce an entire line of lenses, the M43 ones, designed exclusively for digital. So, perhaps he's changed his mind.

And while it's true that mass-market digital cameras are on the decline, niche cameras like Leica's and Fuji's have done well will hobbyists and aesthetes. I mean, not many people buy Moog synthesizers, but Moog is thriving, serving its small market.

You'd know better, of course, but I'd like to see CV give digital a shot. I'd also like to see a line of lenses for Fuji XF, especially now that you're selling the brand, Stephen!

 

[jsrockit]

In the last two years, we've already had several new film cameras.
For example:
- Leica M-A
- Fuji Instax mini 90 neo classic
- Fuji Instax Wide 300 EX
- Lomography Instant Automat
- Mint Instantflex TL 70
- Intrepid 4x5", soon a 8x10" will follow
- Impossible I-1
- Leica Sofort
- Harman Titan
- Ilford Obscura
- complete new ONDU camera line
- complete new NOPO camera line
- complete new LeRouge camera line
- some large format cameras from several manufacturers I've forgotten (there are more than 20 different manufacturers of large format cameras).

Outside of the Instax, none of these are mainstream or indicative of a huge return to film.

 

[LukeBanks]

If Mr. K made an m-mount digital Bessa with full frame CCD sensor and the 1:1 VF then I wouldn't think twice.

That's not to say it's possible or economic though!

 

[Skiff]

How many of us shoot digital now, after saying ten years ago that we only liked film cameras? And meanwhile Mr. K has decided to produce an entire line of lenses, the M43 ones, designed exclusively for digital. So, perhaps he's changed his mind.

Even if he would have changed his mind (I doubt that, because the market development has proven him absolutely right to stay away from the digital camera market), it would be completely irrelevant.
Because:
Cosina simply cannot produce digital cameras.
They don't have any engineers, technology (electronics, sensor, software) and production infrastructure for that.

What they can do is
- design and production of lenses
- design and production of film cameras.
Nothing more, nothing less.

To enter the digital camera market Cosina would have to first build up the huge needed capabilities in design and production of the needed digital technologies.
That would take years and dozens of millions of dollars in investments.
They would never ever have a return on investment for that. They would loose millions of dollars. That probably would destroy Cosina. At least it would damage them severely.
I can't imagine Cosina is so stupid.

Cosina can have a sustainable future if they focus on their real competences:
Design and production of lenses and film cameras.
That is what they are good at, and where they can compete with others.

 

[squirrel$$$bandit]

Even if he would have changed his mind (I doubt that, because the market development has proven him absolutely right to stay away from the digital camera market), it would be completely irrelevant.
Because:
Cosina simply cannot produce digital cameras.
They don't have any engineers, technology (electronics, sensor, software) and production infrastructure for that.

What they can do is
- design and production of lenses
- design and production of film cameras.
Nothing more, nothing less.

To enter the digital camera market Cosina would have to first build up the huge needed capabilities in design and production of the needed digital technologies.
That would take years and dozens of millions of dollars in investments.
They would never ever have a return on investment for that. They would loose millions of dollars. That probably would destroy Cosina. At least it would damage them severely.
I can't imagine Cosina is so stupid.

Cosina can have a sustainable future if they focus on their real competences:
Design and production of lenses and film cameras.
That is what they are good at, and where they can compete with others.

I have to disagree. They could do exactly what they did before: partner with an experienced manufacturer of digital imaging tech. And larger market forces simply wouldn't apply to what is, again, the incredibly small niche market they already inhabit. Relative to the big picture, almost nobody buys Voigtlander products. But in our little world, CV is popular and stable. A digital camera would be competing in that tiny market, not the collapsing one you're referring to.

The idea that the people who designed all this great stuff are incapable of designing a new product is silly. Apple didn't used to make phones, for instance. Smart people do innovate.

 

[Skiff]

I have to disagree. They could do exactly what they did before: partner with an experienced manufacturer of digital imaging tech.

No, because there are no possible partners.
Former partner Epson is gone. And it wasn't a real partnership: Epson was the driving force, and Cosina just a supplier of the camera body.
The few companies who have the technology capabilities are their direct competitors! Why should they invest in increasing their competion? In a absolutely murderous market in which all companies are fighting for their long term survival?
The others will not be so stupid to shoot themselves in their own foot and burning money in increasing the competition situation.

And larger market forces simply wouldn't apply to what is, again, the incredibly small niche market they already inhabit. Relative to the big picture, almost nobody buys Voigtlander products. But in our little world, CV is popular and stable. A digital camera would be competing in that tiny market, not the collapsing one you're referring to.

Exactly, it is an extremely tiny market (and on the decline, too). Dominated by Leica. A new Cosina digital RF would compete with new, and especially with used Leica digital Ms. And lots of photographers in this market also have an eye on DSLMs from Sony, Fuji, Olympus, Panasonic, Canon.
So its even much more competition. From experienced companies (not newcomers).

It is absolutely impossible to get a return on investement for a bloody newcomer in such a horrible market environment.

The idea that the people who designed all this great stuff are incapable of designing a new product is silly. Apple didn't used to make phones, for instance. Smart people do innovate.

Apples to oranges comparison. Cosina has only capabilities in lens design and film camera design.
Designing a sensor, an EVF, image prozessors, imaging software and so on is a completely different business which has absolutely nothing to do with lens and film camera design.

There is a reason why lots of former film camera manufacturers like Minolta, Yashica/Contax, Rollei, Mamiya, Zenza Bronica failed in making the transition to digital imaging. And a reason why former digital camera manufacturers like Epson, Kodak, Casio, Samsung and dozens of Asian OEMs have left the digital camera market.

And by the way:
Apple has been a multi-billion dollar company before the iphone. And they were already experts in digital technology for a very long time.
Absolutely different situation compared to tiny Cosina.

 

[willie_901]

I'd never even heard of Instax and had to Google it to see what it is. So its sort of like Lomo, but with instant film?

Lomo and Instax.... There's probably a smartphone app that will give you that kind of look, if that's what you're after.

People aren't after a particular look. They are after instant satisfaction from a tangible physical object instead of a virtual image. They are after uniqueness and individually by differentiating themselves from the masses who text or distribute virtual images. The whole point is not to use a cell phone.

Fujifilm sells practically all of the Instax cameras (link). The Lomography Organization decided to benefit from the sharp increase in Instax camera and film sales. Good for them!

Note to Mods: I would be grateful if you send me a PM should you decide the link is unacceptable. I happily will repost it without the link.

 

[Skiff]

Fujifilm sells practically all of the Instax cameras (link). The Lomography Organization decided to benefit from the sharp increase in Instax camera and film sales. Good for them!

That is right.
But the instant film market has more to offer than only Instax:
Impossible Project also has increasing demand for years in the double digit range every year.
The demand for their factory refurbished Polaroid cameras is higher than the supply.
Last year their first own new designed camera, the I-1, was introduced. They said more new cameras will follow.

 

[willie_901]

Like who and what are they using to print, Ilfochrome? I haven't seen this trend at all.

The gross global revenue from any of these "trends" (if they even exist) is probably less than SONY spends refreshments during internal business meetings.

The point is, with the exception of Intax, the growth in film usage is economically irrelevant trival to the entire digital imaging market. The vast majority of still digital images are made with smart phones.

This does not mean serving a niche market such as film can not be profitable. It does not mean there isn't real growth in film still imaging (Instax shows this). It means recovering the ROI to grow a film camera business is unattractive. Bringing new high-quality 35mm film cameras to market is not an economically viable strategy... the sales volume is too low. Cosina wouldn't even continue their existing camera line.

 

[willie_901]

That is right.
But the instant film market has more to offer than only Instax:
Impossible Project also has increasing demand for years in the double digit range every year.
The demand for their factory refurbished Polaroid cameras is higher than the supply.
Last year their first own new designed camera, the I-1, was introduced. They said more new cameras will follow.

Thanks for the lead about the I-1 camera. I like their smart-phone app and the ring flash certainly appeals to me.

 

[css9450]

People aren't after a particular look. They are after instant satisfaction from a tangible physical object instead of a virtual image. They are after uniqueness and individually by differentiating themselves from the masses who text or distribute virtual images.

Well, some people are after a particular look.

It was opined awhile back here on the forum that Lomography will be in a bunch of hurt once people realize they can add light leaks, heavy vignetting and color shifts (as if from expired or cross-processed film) to their digital photos pretty much for free. Maybe the post was in jest? I don't know... But I've noticed even Lomography has dialed back the light leaks, vignetting and funky colors in the photos it features on its website. What goes around comes around, it seems.

 

[HHPhoto]

The point is, with the exception of Intax, the growth in film usage is economically irrelevant trival to the entire digital imaging market.

Sorry Willie, but you don't know the markets. Film is the core of a whole silver-halide product and service infrastructure. And it is huge:
One exapmle:
Fujifilm is producing standard films, instant films, instant cameras, archival films, RA-4 silver-halide photo paper, BW photo paper, photo chemistry, lab equipment, photo books. And they are running several huge industrial-scale mass volume photo labs in several countries.
They are making more than 2 billion $ (!) with that business.
And that business is increasing.

With their digital segment (cameras) they are making less than 900 million $, and that business is decreasing.

The two billion $ in silver-halide products is Fujifilm alone, so you have to add all other companies worldwide in this field to get the whole global market.
It is still a multi-billion $ business, and it is now increasing again.

This does not mean serving a niche market such as film can not be profitable. It does not mean there isn't real growth in film still imaging (Instax shows this). It means recovering the ROI to grow a film camera business is unattractive. Bringing new high-quality 35mm film cameras to market is not an economically viable strategy... the sales volume is too low. Cosina wouldn't even continue their existing camera line.

I have to disagree again. Because
1. Nikon and Leica have proven that it is possible, even in the last very difficult times for film. Same is valid for Cosina:
They were successful with their film cameras in a strongly declining market for film for about 15 years.
Why should they not be successful in a rising film market?
2. Now the demand for film is increasing again. The prices for used cameras are partly already rising, and we will see increasing prices in the used market in a broader range in the coming years. The price gap between used and (potential) new film cameras will become smaller in the next years. That makes new cameras more attractive for buyers.

Since 2002 self-proclaimed "experts" have told me that
- instant film will be the first film type that will be completely killed by digital
- after that until 2010 all film production will be stopped, film will be dead
- of course there will be no new film manufacturers
- of course there will be no discontinued films that will be re-introduced to the market
- of course no new films in general
- Ektachrome will never come back.

All that was completely wrong.
Nevertheless the same people now tell me that there will be no new film cameras in the future.

And I tell them we will have new film cameras in the coming years.
We've had the same development in other industries, e.g. mechanical watches and vinyl / turntables. A strong revival with lots of new, excellent equipment.

Cheers, Jan

 

[radi(c)al_cam]

[…]
And I tell them we will have new film cameras in the coming years.
We've had the same development in other industries, e.g. mechanical watches and vinyl / turntables. A strong revival with lots of new, excellent equipment.

Not to forget classical pianos — both grand pianos and upright pianos.
People who love music are fed up with electric, electronic, and digital pianos. At least 9 of 10 piano teachers say that there's no way to learn playing piano seriously when the student is using such a non-mechanical device.
(Perhaps there's the one or the other piano teacher who would recommend such a crappy electric thing, but then they're shills of the electronic-shops.)

 

[shawn]

Well, some people are after a particular look.

It was opined awhile back here on the forum that Lomography will be in a bunch of hurt once people realize they can add light leaks, heavy vignetting and color shifts (as if from expired or cross-processed film) to their digital photos pretty much for free. Maybe the post was in jest? I don't know... But I've noticed even Lomography has dialed back the light leaks, vignetting and funky colors in the photos it features on its website. What goes around comes around, it seems.

This has been available for years as the Hipstamatic app.

http://hipstamatic.com/camera/

When you take a picture it "develops" based on the "lens" and "film" you have loaded into the virtual camera. Some combos give more color shifts and light leaks than others. Even has a randomize mode where you won't know what you get. They even sell additional 'film' and 'lens' combos. Where they are (or at least were) different from others is this wasn't applied in post after you took the shot. You had to decide on lens/film before shooting and the image had that combo baked in when the photo 'developed.'

Shawn

 

[css9450]

This has been available for years as the Hipstamatic app.

http://hipstamatic.com/camera/

That's the one, thanks!