Which One Please

[ARCHIVIST]

Greetings all.
I am getting out of my FSU r/f rangefinders and Pentax 35mm SLRs as I am concentrating on 6x9.
This said I still have a need for a 35mm camera and a r/f with a 35mm and 50mm lenses will be my aim. Voigtlander seems to be the way to go as I like the inbuilt meter function.
So, which model camera do you all suggest and which lenses – criteria being large bright finder, sharp lenses, obviously, but I do not necessarily need the fastest available.
Am I correct in assuming that the Voigtlander is robust and will last? I have heard that the body covering goes sticky after a while?
Any and all advice would be most welcome.
Peter.

 

[zenza]

If you plan to use 35/50 lenses, you probably want an R2. There are 3 versions. All three have a built in meter and 35/50/75/90 framelines that you manually select. It's an M-mount camera.

The original R2 which is manual exposure and a minimum focus distance of 0.9m. Only the meter needs batteries the camera is otherwise fully mechanical.

The R2M is slightly newer and essentially the same as the R2 except it has a minimum focus distance of 0.7m.

The R2A which is similar to the R2M physically but it's an electronic camera with aperture priority and manual mode. It requires batteries for shooting as the shutter is electronically controlled.

You could look into the Bessa R. Build quality is less impressive and it's screw mount. They're cheaper to buy but screw mount is quite limited in affordable lens choice. You may save money getting the body but then a sudden desire for a fast 35mm may cause you to spend more than you want. There are lots of new companies producing interesting and affordable M-mount lenses as well, so going screw mount will prevent you from being able to use these.

For lenses I can't recommend the Color Skopar 35/2.5 enough. If you need speed the Nokton 35/1.4 is a good choice. For 50mm, the LTM Canon 1.4/1.5/1.8 lenses all have interesting characteristics. The Ultron 35/2 is supposed to be stellar and despite being relatively new still, they're going for about 1/2 the original cost used.

 

[newst]

I used a Bessa-R for two years. It is a sweet camera with a nice rangefinder/viewfinder and an accurate light meter. It is small and light, very easy to carry around and shoot with. It worked well for me and I hope it is still working well for the person I sold it on to.

Why did I sell it? I was never sure how long it would last. It just felt flimsy, like any little bump would knock it out of commission. I have read that the later R versions are more sturdy, but I have never held one to say for myself. Once I discovered that I could get just as satisfying results using either a light meter or a phone app as I could using the Bessa meter, I put it on the market.

I replaced it with a Canon P and a Canon L1, both of which are fully mechanical LTM rangefinders of outstanding quality. The P has stainless steel shutter curtains and viewfinder lines for 35/50/100 mm. The L1 could have either cloth or stainless curtains (mine is cloth) with a switchable viewfinder (no lines) for 35mm, 50mm, and an unspecified magnified view (reported to approximate 135mm) to assist focusing if needed. The rangefinder mirror is gold, not silver, backed, and far less subject to corrosion.

If you really only need 35mm and 50mm I would recommend the L1 (or any other Canon rangefinder that uses the same finder design, like the VL2) as I find having the entire view representing the image, without interference by composition lines, the better way to go.

There is a wide range of excellent LTM lenses available to choose from, older designs from Leica, Canon, Nikon and others provide a more classic look on film, where designs by Topcor and Voigtlander tend to be more modern in their rendering. A simple kit, say a Canon L1, Canon 1.8/50 and Canon 2.8/35 together can be acquired for less than a single Leica M or Zeiss ZM or even some Voigtlander M lenses. Of course, there are LTM lenses that are very pricy as well. Remember, you can use all the LTM lenses on an M mount camera, should you choose to acquire one, with a simple, inexpensive, adapter ring. You can't use any M lens on an LTM camera.

 

[Out to Lunch]

I'd buy the most recent Voigtlander R3 or R4 available-good luck finding one at a reasonable price. There is nothing flimsy about them. I bought mine some 10 years ago and both are still going strong today. The only rangefinder that failed me is a Leica M-E which I bought in 2015, and which succumbed to sensor rot four years later. Cheers, OtL

 

[Ko.Fe.]

All CV Bessa L, R and T cameras are build on Cosina made low cost SLR CT-1 chassis. Nikon FM10 is known example.
I don't think with current and way they are going film prices durability from film use is going to be valuable factor. On my R shutter blades joints started to show visible worn after extensive use. But it was with Kentmere 400 100' cost of 29 USD.

Been based on cheap, plastic chassis those cameras wont last with clear exterior in daily bag use. Even M and A series top plates painting is not durable.

I had R2M for some years and used it periodically, but not often. For local and within USA travels.
The most important was to keep it in the half-case all the time. And also place it very carefully in the bag while not in use.
I also stitched on strap lugs on this half-case. It solved the most annoying part of this camera, which is wrong placement of the lugs. Might be not big deal if you hold camera in hands, but I'm classic 🙂 walker, with camera on the neck strap for hours. Any Bessa will tilt on me lens up.
While in the half-case camera becomes bigger. With its tall profile it didn't feels as compact camera anymore.

Metering with Bessas was finicky. First of all for some odd reasons they made it works only with cocked shutter. It was inconvenient to me. Especially with owning of L twice, which doesn't have this deffect.
With R and R2M I had to pre-guess exposure, otherwise meter would start dancing.
R2M was next to spot metering. Which is not something I find to be convenient either.
I'm finding phone app or modern compact meters to be more convenient.

Been build on cheap CT-1 chassis also feels in shutter dial. It is easy to rotate to one direction and needs two fingers to rotate in another direction.
I was never impressed by RF patches in those cameras. FED-2 RF patch is better.

If you could find non-trashed R under 300 USD it could be OK purchase.
Canon 35/2 and Canon 50 1.4 are good lenses without high prices to attach.

If you want to pay next to M2 price on RxM series, better get matching this price lenses. IMO.
CV 35 f2 and new 50 1.5 or retro funky 50 3.5.

 

[ARCHIVIST]

Thank you all for the most detailed and informative responses.
Much to consider. I will inform this thread of my progress.


Cheers
Peter

 

[zenza]

I'd buy the most recent Voigtlander R3 or R4 available-good luck finding one at a reasonable price

Neither of those are ideal if 35/50 are your main focal lengths.

Anyway I own an R2, R3A, and R4A and they're all lovely cameras that I've had no issues with.

 

[monopix]

Metering with Bessas was finicky. First of all for some odd reasons they made it works only with cocked shutter. It was inconvenient to me. Especially with owning of L twice, which doesn't have this deffect.

The L has a mechanical lock on the shutter release, when the advance lever is in its parked position, which stops accidental draining of the batteries when the camera is in a bag. People didn't like that they had to move the advance lever to use the meter so the mechanical lock was removed in later cameras and a switch added under the base plate that only allows the meter to be used once the camera is cocked.

If it wasn't there, then, no doubt, there would have been complaints of batteries being drained.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

The L has a mechanical lock on the shutter release, when the advance lever is in its parked position, which stops accidental draining of the batteries when the camera is in a bag. People didn't like that they had to move the advance lever to use the meter so the mechanical lock was removed in later cameras and a switch added under the base plate that only allows the meter to be used once the camera is cocked.

If it wasn't there, then, no doubt, there would have been complaints of batteries being drained.

My Nikkormat has no locks. And no battery drains, either. All I have to do is to move shutter advance lever a little and measure at any time.

 

[charjohncarter]

I used a Bessa-R for two years. It is a sweet camera with a nice rangefinder/viewfinder and an accurate light meter. It is small and light, very easy to carry around and shoot with. It worked well for me and I hope it is still working well for the person I sold it on to.

Why did I sell it? I was never sure how long it would last. It just felt flimsy, like any little bump would knock it out of commission. I have read that the later R versions are more sturdy, but I have never held one to say for myself. Once I discovered that I could get just as satisfying results using either a light meter or a phone app as I could using the Bessa meter, I put it on the market.

I replaced it with a Canon P and a Canon L1, both of which are fully mechanical LTM rangefinders of outstanding quality. The P has stainless steel shutter curtains and viewfinder lines for 35/50/100 mm. The L1 could have either cloth or stainless curtains (mine is cloth) with a switchable viewfinder (no lines) for 35mm, 50mm, and an unspecified magnified view (reported to approximate 135mm) to assist focusing if needed. The rangefinder mirror is gold, not silver, backed, and far less subject to corrosion.

If you really only need 35mm and 50mm I would recommend the L1 (or any other Canon rangefinder that uses the same finder design, like the VL2) as I find having the entire view representing the image, without interference by composition lines, the better way to go.

There is a wide range of excellent LTM lenses available to choose from, older designs from Leica, Canon, Nikon and others provide a more classic look on film, where designs by Topcor and Voigtlander tend to be more modern in their rendering. A simple kit, say a Canon L1, Canon 1.8/50 and Canon 2.8/35 together can be acquired for less than a single Leica M or Zeiss ZM or even some Voigtlander M lenses. Of course, there are LTM lenses that are very pricy as well. Remember, you can use all the LTM lenses on an M mount camera, should you choose to acquire one, with a simple, inexpensive, adapter ring. You can't use any M lens on an LTM camera.

I like my Bessa R which meet the criteria of the OP. I get by nicely with a 50mm Elmar f3.5, an old Canon 35mm f3.5, and an Elmar 90mm I think it is f4.0. I really don't need faster lenses, but the OP may require them.

EDIT: the Bessa R has changeable bright line viewing: 50mm, 75mm, 35mm, 90mm.

 

[monopix]

My Nikkormat has no locks. And no battery drains, either. All I have to do is to move shutter advance lever a little and measure at any time.

That method of turning on the meter is the reason I never bought a Nikon.

Years ago, when I was looking at changing my camera, I almost bought a Nikon until I found out that was the way the meter was turned on. Being left eyed, I thought it would put the advance lever into my right eye. Not sure if that would have really been the case but it's the reason I never bought the Nikon. Instead, I bought a Contax and the rest, as they say, is history.

I guess we all have different preferences.

 

[Evergreen States]

What about a Zeiss Ikon ZM?
Or a Canon 7?

Don't get an R3 unless you're willing to scrap the 35/50 for a 40.

 

[aizan]

Bessa R2 or R2a with the new 50mm f/1.5 Nokton II and 35mm f/2 Ultron Vintage would be veeeeery nice.

 

[ARCHIVIST]

Much food for thought.

 

[dof]

That method of turning on the meter is the reason I never bought a Nikon.

Years ago, when I was looking at changing my camera, I almost bought a Nikon until I found out that was the way the meter was turned on. Being left eyed, I thought it would put the advance lever into my right eye. Not sure if that would have really been the case but it's the reason I never bought the Nikon. Instead, I bought a Contax and the rest, as they say, is history.

I guess we all have different preferences.

We really do! The FM2 works in the same manner as the Nikkormat is described. I'm a left-eye shooter as well and didn't find the winder position to be an issue.

In fact, I really missed this feature in the M6 TTL. It took a while for turning the shutter speed dial to the off position to become second nature. Those early failures led to frequent battery drainage with the camera in the bag. At first I thought I got a defective camera. Turns out it was just teething pains on a path toward a different way of working.

What I like most about Nikon's solution is that shutter speed dial can be left closer to the most used values when the camera is off. Turning the meter on via the winder made quick business of getting camera ready to be shot.

I learned a new set of habits on the M6 that have kept me nimble, even if a few grab shots don't get a well-considered time for metering here and there. I still shoot the M6 and gave the FM2 to my niece last year.

Moral of the story is that we do have our preferences and that they can also change over time. 🙂

 

[juraj_v]

I used a Bessa-R for two years. It is a sweet camera with a nice rangefinder/viewfinder and an accurate light meter. It is small and light, very easy to carry around and shoot with. It worked well for me and I hope it is still working well for the person I sold it on to.

Why did I sell it? I was never sure how long it would last. It just felt flimsy, like any little bump would knock it out of commission. I have read that the later R versions are more sturdy, but I have never held one to say for myself. Once I discovered that I could get just as satisfying results using either a light meter or a phone app as I could using the Bessa meter, I put it on the market.

I replaced it with a Canon P and a Canon L1, both of which are fully mechanical LTM rangefinders of outstanding quality. The P has stainless steel shutter curtains and viewfinder lines for 35/50/100 mm. The L1 could have either cloth or stainless curtains (mine is cloth) with a switchable viewfinder (no lines) for 35mm, 50mm, and an unspecified magnified view (reported to approximate 135mm) to assist focusing if needed. The rangefinder mirror is gold, not silver, backed, and far less subject to corrosion.

If you really only need 35mm and 50mm I would recommend the L1 (or any other Canon rangefinder that uses the same finder design, like the VL2) as I find having the entire view representing the image, without interference by composition lines, the better way to go.

There is a wide range of excellent LTM lenses available to choose from, older designs from Leica, Canon, Nikon and others provide a more classic look on film, where designs by Topcor and Voigtlander tend to be more modern in their rendering. A simple kit, say a Canon L1, Canon 1.8/50 and Canon 2.8/35 together can be acquired for less than a single Leica M or Zeiss ZM or even some Voigtlander M lenses. Of course, there are LTM lenses that are very pricy as well. Remember, you can use all the LTM lenses on an M mount camera, should you choose to acquire one, with a simple, inexpensive, adapter ring. You can't use any M lens on an LTM camera.

I totally agree. Nothing against the Voigtlanders, great cameras with beautiful finders, but mechanically they're in different league.. Canons are more in the Leica territory, built to last and easy to service(but rarely needed). I have a Canon P with 1.4 and L3 with 1.8 lens, and they're like Japanese katana sword 🙂

 

[zenza]

The P definitely feels better than the Bessas...but if you want a meter and/or aperture priority Bessas are by far the superior choice in that case.