World Cup Champions: France or Italy?

[Marc-A.]

general agreement in the end

general agreement in the end

no reason for Domenech to complain about. It was his tactics not to take too much risk. He got angry because Italy made the same thing but was luckier. Didier

Could not agree more with you! See 😉
Domenech has a lot of responsabilities; but no one in France will say anything against him now. I agree about Barthez; I also think that the French team should have been more offensive, with two strikers ... but Domenech is not, and will never be Lippi.

Now, was Italy victory over France undeserved. No, it was deserved in spite of the general better performance of France at the match. This is my opinion taking into account a sportive competence is not only physical, but tests the minds strenght as well. Here Italy clearly prevailed over France and conquered its victory. Or better said perhaps, France collapsed first.

I agree altogether!! This is why Italy was the strongest team (and not only yesterday); this is what made the strength of France in 1998 and 2000; this was finally the "trademark" of the great German teams.

 

[ruben]

BTW, I have seen at TV that Jacques Chirac had the kindness to visit Zidane at the changing room at the stadium, and latter in a formal ceremony with the players he said warm words about Zidane. Furthermore, the French team got a warm welcome in France with "Sisu" images and slogans projected on the Triumph Arch.
Thiery, asked about Zidane (I think it was still in Germany) answered with an extremely humble facial expression: "The only think we have to say to him is thank you".

French people, French president, French team - You have taken my heart.

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[Marc-A.]

Your words mean a lot to me, Ruben. I've got nothing else to add.
Marc

 

[dadsm3]

I have to disagree with the posters who claim there's nothing wrong with the game despite 30 fewer goals, and literally hours of play in the final 3 games without a goal or even a shot on net.....boring.
There's no shame in adjusting the rules to compensate for an increasingly obvious defensive advantage. Hockey (net size, 2-line pass), baseball (the DH), US Football (goal posts to the back of the end zone, hash mark move, sudden death OT), and basketball (shot clock,field goals) have all felt the need at some point to adjust the rules to allow for the increasing size and skill of players, and keep the game entertaining for everyone instead of just the purists.
There's no question net size, unlimited substitution, penalties for diving, and automatic sitting out for say 3 minutes for players who roll around faking an injury should all be on the table.....
Finally, having a game of this magnitude decided by a ridiculous kicking skill contest is an insult to the game.
Play till you fall down.

 

[Marc-A.]

Finally, having a game of this magnitude decided by a ridiculous kicking skill contest is an insult to the game.
Play till you fall down.

I like that! I mean it.

 

[raid]

I just placed my vote: Italy will win. 🙂 Now if we could do such votes and win a Leica ... that would be great. Any sponsors?

raid

 

[darkkavenger]

po po po po po po *dances & sings on the theme of The White Stripes - Seven Nation Army*

Grazie Italia mia!!!!!!!

 

[darkkavenger]

I would also add that, seeing Trezeguet crying brought me close to tears too... he's a good guy and I remember having been teaching computing to his mother and sister about 5 years ago when I was still in Monte-Carlo... very nice persons.

My heart is for Italy though...

 

[fitzihardwurshd]

No excuse for Zidane's behaviour - if the officials saw it he had to go off, but I'd be interested in knowing what was said to him to get such a reaction.
Steve

Steve,
yes, he did that before, but after 17 years of playing pro football, during a WC final, in a situation where France got the control of the match, IT must have been a terrible insult to make him act like that.

I have a clear imagination of what kinda insult it has been , it must have been something concerning his mother or sister , as I suppose combined with a racistic background.

If it is a weak point of a character or a virtue , not beeing able to control oneself in such a situation is only a question of the cultural standpoint. His family and especially his mother and his sister are surely what he loves most in this world and for him and his cultural background I think there are no compromises possible concerning the reaction, final match or not.
I think his age and experience, his general exhaustion and tiredness and his status as a national hero, that all together made ii even easier to "throw away a WC final for the honour of his family", as it might be seen from our standpoint.

It wasn't THAT difficult to to push his "button" in the right moment, and Materazzi knew it because he knows him well from former times in Italy. For me personally this is mean enuff to regret, that Zidane , wise enuff and with a very last rest of self - control decided only to hit Materazzis breast, and not his cheeky cakehole. Because this sort of calculated despicableness is more than disgusting.

Regards,
Fitzi

 

[darkkavenger]

There's a lot of speculation going on about what happened. Let's have the protagonists speak first.

 

[Gabriel M.A.]

France 2 showed the whole thing (save the actual "verbal" audio exchange from the italian player, too far away): the italian player is grabbing Zidane; when the ball is out of range, he lets him go. Zidane really is not paying much attention to the italian, and something is said between the two, they exchange a very cordial smile, and start trotting. Then the italian says something, and Zidane turns around clearly taken aback by whatever the italian said.

And you've seen the out-of-context blah blah blah. Yes, it was wrong. The difference here is that Zidane was seen inflicting physical pain. That is something that Zidane should have thought through. The reason behind it, well... there are many things that we don't know, like why the Ref was so selective in his calls. I was surprised he called the penalty for France (shocked, actually).

We have a phrase for refs like that in Spanish, and is all speculation, of course, with no hard facts: arbitro vendido.

 

[peter_n]

I agree. There is nothing wrong with the game.

My soccer history is sketchy at best (I read a book or two several years ago), so maybe someone more steeped can help out, but wasn't there a time, back in the 50's or 60's when the game went into horrible funk, and a srong defensive mindset ruled the day (at the expense of attacking play). I believe Italy perfected the style (catenaccio?)--probably why they have such a strong tradition of good defense. Anyway lets hope it doesn't go that way again. 🙂

You are right Ray, nothing wrong with the game. And yes, catenaccio - the door lock. It was at Italian giants Internazionale where that system was invented, and quickly spread to their neighbours AC Milan. Helenio Herrera from Argentina was the coach who thought up the system and made it work at Inter. The current Italian coach Marcello Lippi rarely uses catenaccio and his more positive attitude has really paid off in this tournament. He substituted with attacking players and I for one (as a fan of the Serie A) hope that his thinking spreads to other coaches in that great league.

 

[raid]

Steve,
yes, he did that before, but after 17 years of playing pro football, during a WC final, in a situation where France got the control of the match, IT must have been a terrible insult to make him act like that.

I have a clear imagination of what kinda insult it has been , it must have been something concerning his mother or sister , as I suppose combined with a racistic background.

If it is a weak point of a character or a virtue , not beeing able to control oneself in such a situation is only a question of the cultural standpoint. His family and especially his mother and his sister are surely what he loves most in this world and for him and his cultural background I think there are no compromises possible concerning the reaction, final match or not.
I think his age and experience, his general exhaustion and tiredness and his status as a national hero, that all together made ii even easier to "throw away a WC final for the honour of his family", as it might be seen from our standpoint.

It wasn't THAT difficult to to push his "button" in the right moment, and Materazzi knew it because he knows him well from former times in Italy. For me personally this is mean enuff to regret, that Zidane , wise enuff and with a very last rest of self - control decided only to hit Materazzis breast, and not his cheeky cakehole. Because this sort of calculated despicableness is more than disgusting.

Regards,
Fitzi

I heard the same comment on Sattelite TV today. While Zedane has not mentioned to his team players what was said to him, some of his close family members have leaked that things about his wife and sister were said. If true, I do not find such an approach honorable or acceptable. Even in Pro sport, there should be some decency left. Shame would have fallen on the Italian team by one player.

Raid

 

[RayPA]

You are right Ray, nothing wrong with the game. And yes, catenaccio - the door lock. It was at Italian giants Internazionale where that system was invented, and quickly spread to their neighbours AC Milan. Helenio Herrera from Argentina was the coach who thought up the system and made it work at Inter. The current Italian coach Marcello Lippi rarely uses catenaccio and his more positive attitude has really paid off in this tournament. He substituted with attacking players and I for one (as a fan of the Serie A) hope that his thinking spreads to other coaches in that great league.

Aaah...thank you, Peter for fillling in the details—amazing what the memory retains. You've quite the knowledge and passion for the game. I wish I could see more Serie A and EPL games. I used to be able to catch the occassional Serie A game on TV, but I haven't seen one in about three years. We get the Mexican League pretty regularly on the Spanish channel, and EPL is available for subscription—or the price of beer at the local Irish bar (...err pub!).

🙂

 

[RayPA]

BTW, I found it unusual that the assistant referee supposedly did not see the head butt and used the stadium reply to confirm the foul. I guess soccer and American football are closer to one another than we imagined. 🙂

.

 

[fgianni]

For me personally this is mean enuff to regret, that Zidane , wise enuff and with a very last rest of self - control decided only to hit Materazzis breast, and not his cheeky cakehole. Because this sort of calculated despicableness is more than disgusting.

What a silly way to excuse an behavior that really has no excuse.
When Totti was banned for spitting (a far less serious offence) no one in Italy tried to excuse him asking what the opponent said to him, whatever the insult (if any we will never know for sure) there is no place for this sort of things in football!
And even if there was an insult, how do you know that Zidane did not start exchanging insults first? (I am not saying he did, I am saying he may, for what we know)
Advocating more violence, as you do, has even less place in any sport!

 

[jonasv]

Shame would have fallen on the Italian team by one player.

Raid

It's not the first time Materazzi does something like that. His specialisation in football is getting other players sent off by constantly insulting them, or assaulting other players when the referee isn't watching. (remember the elbow against an Argentinian player in the quarter finals). He once started a fight with the player of the opposite team, and he himself was on the bench, not even playing! Other examples in the past are numerous... The Italians even started a petition to ban him from Italian football leagues a while ago.

And when you're playing against Zidane... You know that kind of tactics will work, especially when calling his sister a whore (twice) and him a dirty terrorist (likely the words of Materazzi). Zidane grew up in the streets and his blood is still Algerian. I'm not excusing him. What Zidane did, does not belong in football and is not tolerable. But Materazzi knew exactly what was going to happen and did it anyway. Great 'football' player...


ps. Francesco, Totti did actually physically assault a player a few years ago, but I could not find an image of that. It may have been 2000, 2002 or 2004 I can't remember, but when the game was going to end and the referee halted the game for a fault, he kicks his studs into the back of the leg of a player... Can't remember who or what team, but I do remember what happened and I'm certainly not the only one as football commentators reiterated it on television sunday.

 

[fgianni]

ps. Francesco, Totti did actually physically assault a player a few years ago, but I could not find an image of that. It may have been 2000, 2002 or 2004 I can't remember, but when the game was going to end and the referee halted the game for a fault, he kicks his studs into the back of the leg of a player... Can't remember who or what team, but I do remember what happened and I'm certainly not the only one as football commentators reiterated it on television sunday.

Yes but that was not my point, my point is that when Totti behaved in an unacceptable way, no one in Italy tried to excuse him asking if he was insulted or not; but I suppose someone thinks that Zidane is better than Totti, and excuses for his behavior should be found for him, while for some unfathomable reason Totti does not deserve the same treatment.😉

 

[jonasv]

Yes but that was not my point, my point is that when Totti behaved in an unacceptable way, no one in Italy tried to excuse him asking if he was insulted or not; but I suppose someone thinks that Zidane is better than Totti, and excuses for his behavior should be found for him, while for some unfathomable reason Totti does not deserve the same treatment.😉

I don't think it has to do with Zidane being a better player. A few years ago there was a similar incident in a Belgium vs The Netherlands game. A Belgian defender, Staelens, insulted Kluivert, who put his elbow in Staelens' chest. Afterwards the reactions were very mixed, to say the least, Staelens got as much negative reactions as Kluivert did. Kluivert, just like Zidane, was a player with a temper that could sway back and forth. I think the similarity is that both Materazzi and Staelens knew exactly what was going to happen, and deliberately decided to do it and try to get the other player sent off. I don't think that was the case in the Totti incidents, Totti simply got to his boiling point without a direct reason. iirc the opposite player didn't behave like Materazzi or Staelens.

I think the punishment for Totti, Zidane and Kluivert should be equal, no excuses for what they did: but players like Staelens and Materazzi should be suspended as well.

 

[fgianni]

It's not the first time Materazzi does something like that.

While of course it's the first time Zidane does something like that.

He did never stamp on a Saudi player in the 1998 world cup (2 match ban) claiming that he was racially insulted ( thanks to the clarifications made earlier in this thread about Zidane's racial background one wonders exactly how an arab can racially insult someone of his same race).
And he never headbutt Jochen Kientz in the the 2000/2001 Champions League match between Juventus Turin and Hamburger SV (I guess his excuse must have been the same). 😛

But of course as I said before, unlike for other players, every effort has to be made to excuse his behavior, I am not sure why, but this seems to be the case.😕