World Cup Champions: France or Italy?

[peter_n]

Well said on all counts, Didier. Dodgy avatar though...

 

[John Camp]

I know little about World Cup football, so take this with a grain of salt, but I think FIFA should come up with a way to force attacks; the equivalent in basketball of a shot clock, or perhaps not allowing all the players to retreat behind the center line, giving attackers an advantage...but this match (indeed most matches today) seemed destined to be 0-0 or 1-1; everybody is too afraid to give up a goal because they can be impossible to get back when the team that's ahead goes into a defensive stall mode...I thought France outplayed Italy for most of the match, and really showed it after Zidane was booted and they were a man down. Zidane richly deserved the boot. The comment that inspired it was supposedly racist, but somehow I doubt that; it's just too convenient...I think he's just a guy with a short temper and he was frustrated by the French lack of success.

I don't know any French people to ask, but the fact that a French woman won at Wimbledon and a French rider won a glorious one-man break-away in the Tour ought to assuage some of the misery of losing the WC, does it not? Yes? No?

JC

 

[Marc-A.]

Ok just a word after this disappointing final.
- If France had lost by 2-1 or even 3-1 against the Italian team of the first half, it would be fair; I thought Italy was about to crush France after the first half. But this way, oh nooo....
- Zidane, my star: what he did is unforgivable (he's surely the saddest player in world now); what Materazzi did is poor ... he shouldn't be proud of his game (grabbing, pulling, pushing ...etc).
And BTW, Zidane is 100% north-african, from Algeria (from the Moutains of Kabylie, in the South east of Algeria), and was born in France, in Marseille; his parents are still Algerian. Now, nobody mentioned racist talk ... what people think over here is that Materazzi insulted his mother ... this is the only thing that could make ZZ crazy. And because they played long years in the Italian league, Materazzi ssurely knew how to get ZZ nut.
- oh nooo I can't believe it's the end of ZZ, not this way .... but he's a star, he will remain one of the brightest stars in football, so:
Au revoir Zinedine, tu nous manques déjà
- Congrats to the Italian team; they didn't collapse though they were obviously exhausted from the begining of the second half until the end of the game. Best Italian player, my favorite at least: Pirlo, there's no contest.
It's been a pleasure to talk about football in RFF with you guys (and girls!) ...

 

[rover]

It's been a pleasure to talk about football in RFF with you guys (and girls!) ...

Marc, I can't go any farther without agreeing,

thank you all, it has been fun!!!

 

[RayPA]

Congratulations to the Italian team!

 

[jonasv]

And Zidane c'est honteux!!!

Remember Totti...

http://acmilanvn.com/anh/totti_spit3.jpg

the only difference is Zidane actually plays good football :angel:

 

[Oldprof]

I am an old retired American, but I enjoyed the World Cup tremendously ... the great plays, the controversies, the nationalistic fervor of the fans, and even the quibbling over the referees, the lack of scoring, and the determination of games by penalty kicks. It is a great spectacle! Truly, it is a beautiful game and tournament. I will miss it for the next four years.

 

[fgianni]

Here in the UK some people at work thinks that Materazzi told Zidane

"Take it easy, you are going to play for fu@&@ng dung next year!"

And that has done it for him.

 

[fgianni]

I somehow think there must be something wrong also with the way referees are selected, you don't usually see this kind of controversy during the European championships.

 

[rover]

Interestingly, as I have been listening to the games and 24/7 coverage of the event on the radio, full line up of call in talk shows..... The conversations on air have very closely mirrored ours here. All the same issues about the diving, cheating, officiating, PKs or golden goal. Being a largely US audience there has been a lot of talk of changing the rules to make soccer "better". Overall I think that is a bunch of bull, the game is beautiful as is and it seems that if FIFA addresses the diving nothing more needs to be done. A good point was brought up, look at how exhausted the players of both teams, mostly the Italians, were at the end of that game yesterday. Comment was made that soccer is at an important point of progress. The players are now so talented, so fast that the game is played, every play, at so much more pace today than it has been in the past. This has lead to a defensive minded game because the players offensively just cannot keep up an attacking style for so long a time. Especially when the defensive game is so fast to the ball and attacking. That is how both Italy and France made it to the finals by beating Germany and Brazil. Well, the change that should be coming is the adjustment of the players and their games to keep this pace throughout the games which will only result in more exciting better games.

Just a thought.

 

[fgianni]

Remember Totti...

http://acmilanvn.com/anh/totti_spit3.jpg

the only difference is Zidane actually plays good football :angel:

Somehow I tend to consider an attempt to deliberately cause physical harm to an opponent a bit more serious than spitting.
That said Totti received a well deserved lenghty ban for the episode.
Zidane will receive a ban as well, but since he is retiring anyway, he probably couldn't care less.

 

[Didier]

Other english media reported Zidane's been insulted as "terrorist". But whatever Materazzi said (personally I believe it was something below the belt line), Z's reaction was way over. Insulting, grabbing, pulling, pushing are are just common on every football field. A pro has to stand that, especially in a final where all tricks are used.

I remember there was once a french defender called Prunier (Auxerre) who spitted 14 times (!) on Borussia Dortmund striker Stephane Chapuisat's face in a former champions league game. Proven and counted by the german TV. Chapuisat did not nictate his lids once. Prunier got the yellow card, but for a rude foul not the spitting. Auxerre lost after penalties.

At least, Zidane has been elected "best player of the tournament" by the press so let's hope his black out will be forgotten. As already posted, he deserved better and was victim of his temper.

To Domenech's lamento about the lost game I have to say, his team only made two penalty goals in the semifinal and final. Both penalties were justified but the actions that were before the penalties were not close to a shure goal chance. The only field goal chances in both games together were Ribery's and Zidanes shots in the prolongation of the final. That's not enough to be world champion. Italy scored 3 field goals in these two games, and against a semifinal opponent (Germany) that can be considered as much stronger than France's semifinal opponent Portugal.

And France's win over Brazil, as sensational as it looked, was against the weakest Seleçao I have ever seen. Seen over the last three games, France has not done enough to deserve the title, while Italy scored 6 field goals meanwhile.

It has come back on Domenech that his strategy is built on two player's only, a one-man show in the midfield (Zidane) and a one-man show in the forward (Henry). Henry got cramps after 90 minutes (no wonder with such a task), and neither Wiltord nor Trezeguet could replace him equally.

And I'm quite shure Gregory Coupet might have catched the corner pass at the 5m line before Materazzi could score in the 19th minute. Barthez didn't look very good there. To small to jump out in such a situation. A Kahn, a Lehmann, or a Buffon would have catched (or boxed) that pass for shure.

Didier

 

[RayPA]

Interestingly, as I have been listening to the games and 24/7 coverage of the event on the radio, full line up of call in talk shows..... The conversations on air have very closely mirrored ours here. All the same issues about the diving, cheating, officiating, PKs or golden goal. Being a largely US audience there has been a lot of talk of changing the rules to make soccer "better". Overall I think that is a bunch of bull, the game is beautiful as is and it seems that if FIFA addresses the diving nothing more needs to be done. A good point was brought up, look at how exhausted the players of both teams, mostly the Italians, were at the end of that game yesterday. Comment was made that soccer is at an important point of progress. The players are now so talented, so fast that the game is played, every play, at so much more pace today than it has been in the past. This has lead to a defensive minded game because the players offensively just cannot keep up an attacking style for so long a time. Especially when the defensive game is so fast to the ball and attacking. That is how both Italy and France made it to the finals by beating Germany and Brazil. Well, the change that should be coming is the adjustment of the players and their games to keep this pace throughout the games which will only result in more exciting better games.

Just a thought.

I agree. There is nothing wrong with the game.

My soccer history is sketchy at best (I read a book or two several years ago), so maybe someone more steeped can help out, but wasn't there a time, back in the 50's or 60's when the game went into horrible funk, and a srong defensive mindset ruled the day (at the expense of attacking play). I believe Italy perfected the style (catenaccio?)--probably why they have such a strong tradition of good defense. Anyway lets hope it doesn't go that way again.

.

 

[fgianni]

Materazzi claims that he has been provoked as well, of course we will be never able to know if he is telling the truth; but it sounds likely that there may have been an exchange of insults, and Zidane lost control first.

 

[Marc-A.]

To Domenech's lamento about the lost game I have to say, his team only made two penalty goals in the semifinal and final. Both penalties were justified but the actions that were before the penalties were not close to a shure goal chance. The only field goal chances in both games together were Ribery's and Zidanes shots in the prolongation of the final. That's not enough to be world champion. Italy scored 3 field goals in these two games, and against a semifinal opponent (Germany) that can be considered as much stronger than France's semifinal opponent Portugal.
And France's win over Brazil, as sensational as it looked, was against the weakest Seleçao I have ever seen. Seen over the last three games, France has not done enough to deserve the title, while Italy scored 6 field goals meanwhile.
Didier

I don't want to argue, but I cannot let this pass: what is enough to be the world champion? to beat Australia thanks to a penalty at the last second and Ukraine (the weakest team at the quater final level)? And to wait for penalties in the final!
But you're right Spain and Brazil are such poor teams, at least much much weaker than Australia and Ukraine ...
We really should talk about RF now, cuz this is ***
Francesco,a true Italian supporter, is much more moderate than you. Just support Italia, its great team, and stop slashing the other teams...

 

[nomade]

Well Marc there's only one thing you are right about, France deserved to be there, but Italy also deserved the cup, you can't take it away from any of the 2 teams...Right??

 

[Marc-A.]

Well Marc there's only one thing you are right about, France deserved to be there, but Italy also deserved the cup, you can't take it away from any of the 2 teams...Right??

I said nothing like that. I think Italy deserved the cup, and played incredibly well in the first half time, no question about that. I regret the end, as I would have prefered Italy to score once or twice more ... as a matter of fact they couldn't because France dominated the second half until the end. But that is football, and France was unable to score ... too bad for us. The end of the story. The winner's the better.
But to say that France beat weaker teams than the ones defeated by Italy, and then didn't deserve to win the final, is ... I can't say what it is ....
Now, Spain is weaker than Australia and Brazil weaker than Ukraine ... is this sensible to you, honestly?

 

[nomade]

Well cannot object, i'd have also preferred Itasly to win with mroe goals, and i think they could have changed the way they played, though they looked really tired in the 2nd half...Just wanted to check, because i find everywhere a lot fo italy haters whoa re saying no italy didn't deserve any of this, France did deserve to be there in this final, played 120 minutes and didn't win and so did Italy, in the end one team wins, another isleft with regrets, but this doesn't mean that the etams that won didn't deserve it, it's been 12 eyars and i've never seen Italuy playing like that in a world cup or even a euro cup...

 

[ruben]

Materazzi claims that he has been provoked as well, of course we will be never able to know if he is telling the truth; but it sounds likely that there may have been an exchange of insults, and Zidane lost control first.

Francesco, I am glad by your kind approach to this issue, being you a supporter of Italy. Without compromising you in the following I do think Zidane should be held as a human being too. I do not accept all that "you cannot...." And my only hope is that Zidane and the French team would be welcomed in France. They have fought to the limits of their strength, they have put again French football on the world map, and achieved second place, which stained by the pitty of not being first, still is better than third place.

I agree very much with Marc, and think the value of France victory over Spain and Brazil, should not be overlooked, and were due to the oldies' tiger awakening. Nor is so obvious Italy would have achieved such results against both teams, although their victory over Germany seems to indicate it. And it is a fact that the match between Italy and France was won at the pennalty stage only.

Now, was Italy victory over France undeserved. No, it was deserved in spite of the general better performance of France at the match. This is my opinion taking into account a sportive competence is not only physical, but tests the minds strenght as well. Here Italy clearly prevailed over France and conquered its victory. Or better said perhaps, France collapsed first.

The match was very dramatic for me, very enjoyable, and at the height of a final game. Thanks to both teams for the good show they gave the world. I think in four years I go to South Africa. (not with my rangefinders, but with my slrs - at such festivals who cares about noise ?!)

"My 2 cents"
Ruben

 

[Didier]

I don't want to argue, .... stop slashing the other teams...

You don't want to argue but then you do. I have not slashed another team but just said that France had two regular field goal chances in semifinal and final together, plus two quite rigorous penalties, and that is quite less to win the title and no reason for Domenech to complain about. It was his tactics not to take too much risk. He got angry because Italy made the same thing but was luckier.

Zidane's another story, just tragic.

Didier