World Cup Champions: France or Italy?

[fgianni]

But players like Staelens and Materazzi should be suspended as well.

You must know something I don't:

Exactly how do you know that he was really insulted and is not making it up? (Unlikely, but not impossible)
Or how do you know that there has not been actually an exchange of insults between the two players started during the game before the headbutting episode, and in the end Zidane lost his temper first? (quite likely I think)
Or again how do you know that Zidane did not insult Materazzi first and Materazzi simply replied with another insult instead of headbutting Zidane? (not that unlikely)

One should make a judgment for what he actually sees, anything else is pure speculation and has very little use.

 

[jonasv]

every effort has to be made to excuse his behavior

OK, I give up, your selective reading is ridiculous and childish.

I think the punishment for Totti, Zidane and Kluivert should be equal, no excuses for what they did

I'm not excusing Zidane. What he did, does not belong in football and is not tolerable.

Why are you so desperate to start an argument? I didn't say anything about Zidane or how he should be excused, or how it isn't is fault, or whatever. He and any other players that commits a violent assault on a football field should receive the correct punishment, decided upon by FIFA. That is not what I'm talking about and you know that.

I'm saying players like Materazzi and Staelens shouldn't be on a football field either, not with that attitude.

 

[nomade]

Totti is a mean pathetic clown, we all know that, well not all of us...But Zidane ain't no betetr, he acted poorly many times before, just that France was built all aroudn Zidane, although there are players that without them France would have drowned longtime ago...But Italy wasn't built around anyone.

 

[fitzihardwurshd]

What a silly way to excuse an behavior that really has no excuse.

What a silly answer to my post. :bang:

There was no attempt at all to excuse Zidanes behaviour, which I too found in a desastrous way destructive, not to forget his copains and all the shocked fans.

It was the attempt to find an explanation for for this tragedy, but you were so busy with defending the honour of Italy that you did not read it all but jumped on the very last part of my post. Why didn't expect anything else ? Selective reading, as it was said already by JVX. I won't take back anything tho, I mean it.

 

[fgianni]

What a silly answer to my post. :bang:

There was no attempt at all to excuse Zidanes behaviour.

Os sorry thought that by saying:

For me personally this is mean enuff to regret, that Zidane , wise enuff and with a very last rest of self - control decided only to hit Materazzis breast, and not his cheeky cakehole. Because this sort of calculated despicableness is more than disgusting.

You meant that Zidane should have used even more violence that he did, I guess it must have meant something completely different, I can't figure what else however.

 

[fgianni]

I'm saying players like Materazzi and Staelens shouldn't be on a football field either, not with that attitude.

While I understand your point, and on principle I agree with it, not allowing on the pitch players that insult other players would probably mean removing 90% of the players.

Now if there was a way to record everything players say on the pitch, I would be completely in favor of an automatic yellow card for such a behavior, but until then we should only limit our judgment to facts that can be proved.

As far as we know Materazzi's insults, if any, may have been an answer to previous insults, so bashing him for this episode is simply assuming true facts for which we have no evidence.
Zidane's header has been seen and recorded live, so while I think it is fair to condemn his behavior, it is unwarranted to condemn Materazzi.

That said Zidane is one of the greatest players of all time, up there with Pele, Cruijff, Neeskens, Platini and Maradona, and I am not making a judgment on the moral value of the man on a single episode, I am making a very negative judgment about his behavior during those 10 seconds of madness.

But what I don't like is people bending over backwards to excuse it, this gives the wrong impression: oh he did it but he was provoked, so the victim is as guilty as him.

Sorry no, no buts or ifs, a behavior like that needs to be censored in the most unequivocal way, to send a message as strong as possible to anyone that might think of doing the same in similar circumstances.

When Totti was caught spitting, no one asked himself if he was provoked or not, or if the player at the receiving end of the spit should be considered guilty as well if he insulted Totti, the message has been strong and unequivocal, you do such a thing and you get no simpathy and a lenghty ban.
This is what we need to do if we want to see less episodes like those in the future.

Cheers

 

[ruben]

Dear Francesco,
First of all let's start again remarking that Italy's victory over France is, at least for me and I think for the rest of the world too, a true victory. Be hundred percent sure about it and you may address the secondary issues.

Second, the fact is that the referee sent Zidane out. I don't see anyone around arguing that the referee was wrong.

Nevertheless, some folks here and in France are regarding Zidane's 'headshot' in a different way you regard Totti's spitting. I am one of them and I would like to explain myself before you.

As far as rules at the game apply I have no argument with the referee. Zidane had to be sent out.

As far as condemnation or understanding of Zidane's headshot, at the aftershock, the argument could be made that I am byassed. Perhaps it is true. No, I AM byassed, without being French, nor having anything against Italy. Kindly believe me I would like to visit Italy far more than France.

Why I am byassed ? Because the oldie's team awakening, during the match against Spain, led by that Zidane smiling optimism somehow touched my heart. I cannot explain it, but from that moment I went pro-France at the WFC. The fact that the French team was being led so prominently by a single player, councious of his role, only makes stronger my emotional attachment to that player. As you see, a lot of emotion. This is football after all, not chess.

Zidane's headshot was not only an act of agression, but a suicidal one far beyond leaving his team with 10 players, and in a very different context than Totti's spitting. Was Totti leading the Italian team ? Was Totti the motor behind his team ? Was Totti playing the last game of his life ? All these are dramatic elements being part of the issue.

Nevertheless, again and again, over any emotions, the referee was right in his decision. No question at all.

Here in Israel, both the press and the people I meet are divided over the same lines more or less. And BTW, as my knowledge goes, also France itself is splitted along these lines. Football moves giant masses, and giant emotions. Kindly accept mine.

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[Gabriel M.A.]

Zidane's headshot was not only an act of agression, but a suicidal one far beyond leaving his team with 10 players, and in a very different context than Totti's spitting. Was Totti leading the Italian team ? Was Totti the motor behind his team ? Was Totti playing the last game of his life ? All these are dramatic elements being part of the issue.

Nevertheless, again and again, over any emotions, the referee was right in his decision. No question at all.

Here in Israel, both the press and the people I meet are divided over the same lines more or less. And BTW, as my knowledge goes, also France itself is splitted along these lines. Football moves giant masses, and giant emotions. Kindly accept mine.

Thank you, Ruben. It is hard and foolish to excuse Zidane's behaviour. What's far more troubling, though, is exactly that: what kind of person could drive somebody to do this sort of thing?

I think that if the ref was going to do retroactive carding, he should have then seen the whole scene and carded the other individual too. A yellow card, at least.

You may be familiar with this Spanish refran: "perro que ladra no muerde." It is those who you don't see doing damage that do the worst, for they are masters of their "art" in not getting caught.

 

[nomade]

What i understand is that if things went the other way around, no oen would ask himself why Materazzi did it, what did Zidane tell him, he was gonna be just another dirty player known for being violent, not to forget that Zidane did the same sort of behaviour twice before...So it's not that big deal if he is doing it once more.

It's beyond me, how this world cup final is surrounded with too much talking, reminds me with the all italian champions league final, people speculated it was a bad sign, and a retardement for modern football, i donno why?? They were 2 of the ebst teams, a smucha s Italy is one of the ebst teams...

I donno if my interference seem ridiculous but couldn't help myself.

 

[KoNickon]

I am sure Zidane is mortified that his action quite possibly cost his team the victory -- has he issued any sort of statement? (Has Materazzi?) I must say the support provided Zidane by his teammates and Chirac is very touching indeed.

Let's face it: Materazzi, whether intentionally or not, accomplished a significant goal for Italy, by getting France's top player out of the game. Zidane should not have taken the bait, regardless of how scurrilous it may have been.

I have to say this, though, about the World Cup overall -- as an exhibition of the "beautiful game" it was a failure, in my opinion. The number of yellow and red cards, the dives, and the games decided on penalty kicks, was not something that would convince those indifferent to the game (i.e. most of the USA) that they've been missing something great all this time. There were only very intermittent flashes of the brilliance you'd expect from the best players in the world. I expect others will have a different opinion.

 

[ruben]

I am sure Zidane is mortified that his action quite possibly cost his team the victory...........Let's face it: Materazzi, whether intentionally or not, accomplished a significant goal for Italy, by getting France's top player out of the game. ......... .

Nick,
I doubt Materazzi accomplished anything against the French team, or on behalf of the Italian team. That's my speculation, based on the fact that Zidane was sent out only 8 minutes before of the end. Given the subjective amount of stress he was under, leading to what it led, I speculate that Zidane had a good chance to miss the pennalty shot himself, if remained playing.

The only thing Materazzi really achieved was robbing Italy some of the glory after the victory, giving space to the French Tragedy show, and Nomade protest about why there is so much talking.

Now, take note that under your script, Materazzi is subtly portrayed as a cold blooded austucious provocator. But there is another possible script, equally speculative, in which Materazzi, the same as Zidane a few moments latter, just lost control of his mouth. He is to be credited as a human being too.

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[fgianni]

Ruben

While I understand you looking at the human being behind it, I still think that all this ifs and buts about such an action send out the wrong message.

Also imagine what Totti is thinking now:

"I spit on a guy, and everyone, including the Italian press and fans go hard down on me, Zidane does a far more serious foul, and a lot of people goes harder on Materazzi than on him"

If it was me I sure would be disgusted by this difference of treatment.

 

[micromontenegro]

For those who would like to get the feeling, there's this little video game: <http://view.break.com/125986>

 

[ruben]

Francesco,
Half of the world is strongly condemning Zidane, and half of France itself is actually cursing him as the responsible for loosing the match. I think that about this half there are no differences between us.

Now, what about the other half? I can speak only for myself and I think that the message is not "whitening" of Zidane's agression. It is a refusal to see in that agression the whole of Zidane's sportive history. It is a recognition of Zidane, IN SPITE OF the agression.

And what about Totti ? The day Totti nears the end of his career, and in case he becomes as relevant for Italy as Zidane for France, I see no reason why should I be less symphathetic to him.

The specific message, specifically concerning Zidane's agression, was cristal clear sent to the world by the referee, on behalf of FIFA and ruling by the book. Beyond the understanding shown to Zidane, at the end of the day, the guy has paid indeed a very heavy price. He is leaving half acclaimed but strongly criticized too. No clear enough message ?

I sincerely think the message you refer to is quite clear.

Further more, I am sure the self doubt of Zidane himself, about how he happened to fail at the most important moment of his life, will haunt him for many many years to come.

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[traveller]

I don't know why Zidane behaved like this but here you can find a update.
At the german site there is even a article that due to the rules the FIFA could punish Italy. That would be in case of racist insults.

 

[fgianni]

Now, what about the other half? I can speak only for myself and I think that the message is not "whitening" of Zidane's agression. It is a refusal to see in that agression the whole of Zidane's sportive history. It is a recognition of Zidane, IN SPITE OF the agression.

Ruben

There are 2 thigs that need to be separated, and we are probably getting confused in mixing the two:

1) 10 seconds of madness do not cancel the career of one of the gratest champions ever, and also you can't judge the value of a man from a single episode in his life; am 100% with you here, and as I said before, he is up there with the greatest champions of all time.

2) He did the foul, but because he was insulted, and things like that, I don't accept, it looks school playground stuff to me: "but Miss Whatever, he insulted my mum, I had to hit him". The players are (allegedly) all grown up. And when condemning the action (without taking the whole career with it) any "if" and "but" is only there to "whiten" (as you say) the aggression.

It is in this light that you shoulld see my comparison with Totti, he is a good player, has room for improvement, he did spit on an opponent once, this does not make him a lesser player or a lesser man, but the action had to be condemned without any question about the reasons behind it. It had been done (correctly) with Totti, it should have been done with Zidane.

I hope I made clear that strongly condemning an action does not automatically mean taking all a career down with it.

Cheers

 

[drmatthes]

We have reports here in Germany that Materazzi might have said something about Zidane being a terrorist, and his sister a b****. Well, even if I have got no sister, this could have upset me, too...

As far a football quality is concerned, I felt a bit disappointed by both finalists.

Besides, it is a fact that Italy managed to kick Frings out of the German team before the semi final for a case still unresolved (Argentine players admit that he hurt nobody in the clash after the quarter final) and to have Zidane kick himself out of a match that seemed well under French control at least at the given period of the match. Looks a bit like a well-planned strategy to me, a strategy that has little to do with good sportsmanship.

The referee has been another problem. While there may well be doubt about the "first" penalty, he clearly missed a "second" one for France.

A bit hard for a German to see Italians going fruitcake about the victory...

(But that's nationalism, not patriotism, Jesko...!)

So it's AAAWL-RIGHT, congratulations, Max !

That's the way it goes with a game as fast & energetic as Football.

As far as fun and the overall mood is concerned, it was a most enjoyable month for us in Germany, and even if it sounds kitsch, Beckenbauer may well be right having stated that this time of friendship between struggling nations looks like...

"a world the way the Lord wants it to be".

Jesko

 

[rover]

Golly, we stopped talking about soccer.

 

[Gabriel M.A.]

Guys, clearly words and sports are outside of the realm on this side of the continent (sports are supposed to be about the game; any insight is just "talk"), and can only lead to hurt feelings, being only exarcebated by the language and culture "walls".

Don't question. Watch and consume! Off to see if there's some rangefinder talk...

 

[raid]

The British daily The Times, however, reported that an assessment by an expert lip reader concluded Materazzi had called Zidane "the son of a terrorist whore" before adding "so just f**k off."