aizan
Veteran
let me be the first to say that moving production to japan may actually improve build quality. 
pkreyenhop
Established
Hi Stephen
Unfortunately your "Hell No! I LOVE paying the highest price possible!" choice suggests a certain foolishness and this will distort the results (as nobody wants to look like a fool). If the choice would have been something like "No, I'd prefer to pay more for for the same product made in Germany" (the foolishness in this is debatable ;-), I bet the results were different.
Cheers
Peter
Unfortunately your "Hell No! I LOVE paying the highest price possible!" choice suggests a certain foolishness and this will distort the results (as nobody wants to look like a fool). If the choice would have been something like "No, I'd prefer to pay more for for the same product made in Germany" (the foolishness in this is debatable ;-), I bet the results were different.
Cheers
Peter
inalux
Newbie
Made in Germany or made in Japan, in my eyes have both the same weight. Germany is not the germany from the old day anymore. Maybe in lens design or glass manufacturing they are one step ahead, but I don't bother. In consumer electronics Japan are ahead. The quality of the the workers are at one level.
I would EXPECT MORE from a 5000USD camera like M8! It sound those trouble is not only at Leica Germany, but everywhere in Germany this time.
Jos
I would EXPECT MORE from a 5000USD camera like M8! It sound those trouble is not only at Leica Germany, but everywhere in Germany this time.
Jos
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Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Laura,lns said:
Fair enough. My wife is a great admirer of the ZI too: the main thing that stops her getting one (apart from the price) is that like me she hates battery-dependent cameras. Personally, I find the ZI meter quite inferior, especially the read-out, and I don't agree that the film loading is better (and as for film unloading, with a backwards crank...)
But you've agreed with me to some extent: the MP does, indeed, feel more solid and reliable. Part of this, I am convinced, is that it is heir to over 80 years of camera manufacture and well over 100 years of precision engineering.
I have the utmost admiration for Mr. Kobayashi -- I dedicated my book on rangefinder cameras to him -- but he is not in the market to make small-run, hand-built cameras. That's also why a few ZI lenses are made in Germany, and I am reasonably confident there will be more: lenses that would, as Zeiss put it, 'be reputation-building, aimed at a small market, and not very price sensitive.'
As for the servicing, yes, things that are built by hand often do require more servicing -- expensive motor-cars are a good example -- but they are often easier to service and can thus be made to last much longer.
The trouble is that many people have a very strange idea of 'luxury' nowadays. Historically, one of the main reasons 'luxury' goods were so expensive was that they were made as well as possible. Today, some 'luxuries' are far more sizzle than steak, especially 'luxury' clothing. There's a big difference between buying a camera because you think it's the best in the world -- and in 35mm, I really do think that about the MP -- and buying a camera because it has Leica written on it. Then again, those who do the latter help keep Leica in business for people like you and me who actually use the things.
Cheers,
Roger
Rob-F
Likes Leicas
I imagine that Leicas will soon be built in the US. Reason? Two words: "falling dollar." My "Japanese" car (Toyota) was built in Lexington, Kentucky. All the parts are American-made except the transmission. And it's fine! Why would Leica not take advantage of the favorable (to them) exchange rate?
I hope they put the manufacturing plant in St. Louis! You could all come here to visit the plant, and buy direct from the factory!
I hope they put the manufacturing plant in St. Louis! You could all come here to visit the plant, and buy direct from the factory!
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Rob,Rob-F said:
Not, I think, outstandingly likely. Which area had you in mind as a traditional repository of fine mechanical engineering?
The best American mechanical engineering tends to be wonderfully reliable and straightforward, but not on a small scale. Packing lots of mechanical bits into a small space is seldom the American way.
Cheers,
Roger
fishric
Established
Please let us not do or say anything to discourage those who pay top price for the best kit.
A long long time ago when I was content with a Pentax sp500 and two lenses, a shipmate bought into the Olympus Om series, filling a back-breaking camera bag with glossy new kit. On returning to U.K. his interest turned to sports cars and I never saw the camera bag again.
My point?
Olympus made money, H.M. Customs probably took a wedge and some camera store had an impressive display of nearly new gear on the second hand shelf.
As a person who has left many nose-prints on camera store windows I am grateful for this chain of commerce. My modest camera collection is 90% pre owned.
I would prefer to buy an M2, knowing that it probably would still be reliable, and be grateful to that well heeled person who kept Leica going way back in the middle of last century.
Regards Richard F.
A long long time ago when I was content with a Pentax sp500 and two lenses, a shipmate bought into the Olympus Om series, filling a back-breaking camera bag with glossy new kit. On returning to U.K. his interest turned to sports cars and I never saw the camera bag again.
My point?
Olympus made money, H.M. Customs probably took a wedge and some camera store had an impressive display of nearly new gear on the second hand shelf.
As a person who has left many nose-prints on camera store windows I am grateful for this chain of commerce. My modest camera collection is 90% pre owned.
I would prefer to buy an M2, knowing that it probably would still be reliable, and be grateful to that well heeled person who kept Leica going way back in the middle of last century.
Regards Richard F.
Finder
Veteran
I would not care where it is made - I really care how it works.
I hope it is not made with an American engineering ideal. It would be too big, heavy, and not quite work right. However, they could learn from the Japanese who have figured out the mass does not mean better, just heavier. They may even shuffle off their conservative bent which is strange as, at the begining, the Leica camera was a revolutionary concept.
I hope it is not made with an American engineering ideal. It would be too big, heavy, and not quite work right. However, they could learn from the Japanese who have figured out the mass does not mean better, just heavier. They may even shuffle off their conservative bent which is strange as, at the begining, the Leica camera was a revolutionary concept.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
The last is not quite fair. (Classic, mechanical) Singer sewing machines? Colt .45 automatics? Heavy, yes, but superb performance and durability. It's more a question of the design philosophy sometimes being crude and out of date: Schwinn, Harley-Davidson. Or of being grossly oversize: H-D again, Humvee.Finder said:
Cheers,
R.
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Finder
Veteran
Roger Hicks said:
Funny you bring up Harley Davidson. It was said if you liked working on bikes, buy a Harley. If you liked riding them, get something else.
Well, if it is a crude machine, then the crude American engineering is fine. Optics and cameras are another matter. I take that back. I have two research microscopes made in Japan on two US mounts. The mounts are huge and work really badly. It took some time to get them right.
My family's history with US cars convinced me never to own one myself.
Naturally, there is some great engineering in the US. I am painting with a big brush. But the "bomb-proof" over engineered philosophy has left me cold.
Germany AND Japan Manufacturing? R lenses for Nikon, Canon, Pentax?
Germany AND Japan Manufacturing? R lenses for Nikon, Canon, Pentax?
Leica seems to be in a tough situation, caught between conflicting forces
1) extremely high Germany labor costs
2) extremely high Euro
3) Mainland China becoming Leica's biggest market for cameras. Expensive Leicas are the new Rollex watches there.
4) Many markets like the US revolting against ever increasing prices.
5) Intense product loyalty which demands "Made In Germany" regardless of cost.
6) Investment in the new Leica Park complex in Wetzlar
Two markets, two products.
One M and R camera line made in Germany.
One M and R camera line made in Japan.
Unless the new R competes technologically with the best of Canon and Nikon it has no chance to sell profitably. And at the huge likely price, it may not sell profitably even then. A FAR smarter sales decision would be scrapping the R system and producing R lenses in Nikon, EOS, and Pentax KA mount. THAT would make money!
Stephen
Germany AND Japan Manufacturing? R lenses for Nikon, Canon, Pentax?
Leica seems to be in a tough situation, caught between conflicting forces
1) extremely high Germany labor costs
2) extremely high Euro
3) Mainland China becoming Leica's biggest market for cameras. Expensive Leicas are the new Rollex watches there.
4) Many markets like the US revolting against ever increasing prices.
5) Intense product loyalty which demands "Made In Germany" regardless of cost.
6) Investment in the new Leica Park complex in Wetzlar
Two markets, two products.
One M and R camera line made in Germany.
One M and R camera line made in Japan.
Unless the new R competes technologically with the best of Canon and Nikon it has no chance to sell profitably. And at the huge likely price, it may not sell profitably even then. A FAR smarter sales decision would be scrapping the R system and producing R lenses in Nikon, EOS, and Pentax KA mount. THAT would make money!
Stephen
Kim Coxon
Moderator
I am not even sure that would work. Zeiss has recognised the sales potential of the KA mount over the M42 and is hoping for sales. They already produce in Nikon. Leica could use the optical formula from the R lenses but they would have to compete with Zeiss on cost. As has been said before, a certain part of the market is based on the name. Would those still "buy" the name if it were to be used on a non-Leica body? If Prada or one of the other design houses had a lower priced range, would they have the same designer mystique?
They might be better off doing the design work etc but letting other manufacturers market their lens. Indeed as they do for panasonic etc. It also worked for such people as Lotus. It would attract the "mass" buyers without affecting the cult/designer status.
Kim
They might be better off doing the design work etc but letting other manufacturers market their lens. Indeed as they do for panasonic etc. It also worked for such people as Lotus. It would attract the "mass" buyers without affecting the cult/designer status.
Kim
wgerrard
Veteran
This is an interesting and revealing thread.
If Leica's are built by highly skilled German employees with many years experience, then they owe their quality to the skills and experience of those employees, not to the fact that they happen to be built by Germans. Any comparably skilled and experienced workforce, in any country, could do the same.
The U.S. dollar's current weak position accounts for some of a Leica's price, but that has not always been the case. Production and labor costs in Europe are typically higher than elsewhere, so all European imports tend to cost more. (A generalization, I know, but I think it holds.) That said, does anyone know what kind of profit margin Leica gets on these things?
What's known about Leica's production process? Is it smooth and efficient, or are there unnecessary bumps and inefficiencies that drive up costs?
Leica prices are 2-3 times that of their few competitors. Are they 2-3 times better? If Leica dropped the price of the MP and the M7 to, say, $1500, would their sales increase or would everyone fret that they were cheaping out?
If Leica's are built by highly skilled German employees with many years experience, then they owe their quality to the skills and experience of those employees, not to the fact that they happen to be built by Germans. Any comparably skilled and experienced workforce, in any country, could do the same.
The U.S. dollar's current weak position accounts for some of a Leica's price, but that has not always been the case. Production and labor costs in Europe are typically higher than elsewhere, so all European imports tend to cost more. (A generalization, I know, but I think it holds.) That said, does anyone know what kind of profit margin Leica gets on these things?
What's known about Leica's production process? Is it smooth and efficient, or are there unnecessary bumps and inefficiencies that drive up costs?
Leica prices are 2-3 times that of their few competitors. Are they 2-3 times better? If Leica dropped the price of the MP and the M7 to, say, $1500, would their sales increase or would everyone fret that they were cheaping out?
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JNewell
Leica M Recidivist
I'm curious what "made in Germany" means. Not in plain English (or plain German?), but legally, under German or EU law. What percentage of the components, for example, must have been made in Germany? Could I have every part of an M8 made in China except for the top plate, assemble them in Germany, and label it "made in Germany"? I doubt an example that extreme is legal, but I would guess that some percentage of a camera or a lens could be sourced from abroad and incorporated in a product that was still legally labeled "made in Germany."
If the product works as advertised and expected, how serious a problem would that be???
If the product works as advertised and expected, how serious a problem would that be???
ferider
Veteran
Thank you Stephen for starting a thread full of and further promoting ethnic stereotypes.
Leitz already produces 4/3rd lenses at a much better consumer price than M lenses.
You should be the first to acknowledge that CV and Zeiss lenses are cheaper due to a different manufacturing process and margin. Not due to manufacturing location.
If you think Japan is cheaper than Germany have a Big Mac in Tokyo and Munich and compare.
And BTW (post #37), Hitler used Horch (= Audi) not Mercedes. Some Mercedes and BMWs are completely "made in the US", like my ML 320 (lousy quality, BTW).
And (post #51) new Harleys have been built in collaboration with Porsche since 1992.
Etc.
Leitz already produces 4/3rd lenses at a much better consumer price than M lenses.
You should be the first to acknowledge that CV and Zeiss lenses are cheaper due to a different manufacturing process and margin. Not due to manufacturing location.
If you think Japan is cheaper than Germany have a Big Mac in Tokyo and Munich and compare.
And BTW (post #37), Hitler used Horch (= Audi) not Mercedes. Some Mercedes and BMWs are completely "made in the US", like my ML 320 (lousy quality, BTW).
And (post #51) new Harleys have been built in collaboration with Porsche since 1992.
Etc.
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Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
Very telling about how somebody feels about the issue.
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
Indeed.ferider said:
Next: Would you buy SAME collectible Nikon gear NOT made in Japan!
Finder
Veteran
Gabriel M.A. said:
Only if it were made in Germany.
Avotius
Some guy
Put it this way...how many people who use leica stuff can extract 10% of what gifted photographers get from voigtlander or zeiss or "lower" brands.
That said...would I like to have some Leica gear? Hell yeah. Am I willing to pay a 1000-3000 dollar premium on the price? Hell no. I am willing however to find the right deal on used leica stuff when its comparable to zeiss and what not. Otherwise....well....just because it says leica made in germany on it doesnt mean im going to level up my photo skills anytime soon.
That said...would I like to have some Leica gear? Hell yeah. Am I willing to pay a 1000-3000 dollar premium on the price? Hell no. I am willing however to find the right deal on used leica stuff when its comparable to zeiss and what not. Otherwise....well....just because it says leica made in germany on it doesnt mean im going to level up my photo skills anytime soon.
wgerrard
Veteran
From my point of view, if you are selling rangefinders that can take Leica lenses and/or you are selling lenses that work on Leica bodies, you are a Leica competitor. The intended market and the quality level, perceived and otherwise, aside, people making and selling the same kind of product as you do are your competitors.
I don't question Leica's reputation for quality, but I wonder how much of it is linked to the high prices. I.e., keeping prices high maintains Leica's status symbol position. As I asked, if they halved their prices, would they halve their reputation?
I don't question Leica's reputation for quality, but I wonder how much of it is linked to the high prices. I.e., keeping prices high maintains Leica's status symbol position. As I asked, if they halved their prices, would they halve their reputation?