Your manual camera is really shutter priority! Electros - best cameras EVER?

[moretto]

Just got back from the photo studio to pick my first roll from GSN. Discovered that I should have started with a B&W and develop at home, because the studio closed half an hour ago. And now I have to wait till tomorrow. I went with C41 to reduce the variables while testing the "new" tool, and C41 stroke back.
Now I don't know yet if my "centre of universe" is out of balance

 

[Anupam]

Actually, with Electros, you CAN control shutter speed by adjusting your ASA dial. In effect, creating a "manual" camera of sorts and having more control over the outcome for certain scenes, avoiding that "middle Gray" you speak of if that is what is desired.

Well, yes - used to do that at times with my old XA. Cumbersome at best and it totally defeats the purpose of the "rangefinder way" that Nick is preaching.

I would propose this. The "rangefinder way," if there is such a thing, is about control and craftsmanship and precision combined with quickness. It is about knowing the light and anticipating situations and being able to precisely place the plane of focus.

Any quickness that comes at the cost of this control essentially defeats the rangefinder way. Any AF SLR with matrix metering will meter more accurately and focus quicker than a center-weighted AE only camera with a dicey rangefinder. So if you want simple quickness, you're better off with those. But the rangefinder way isn't just quickness. It is when you refuse to let a machine decide the plane of focus and want the quickest way to do it yourself. It is about knowing how to meter by eye and also knowing when AE will not be enough. From Speed Graphics to the M8, that has been the rangefinder way - being in perfect control when others sacrifice parts of that control for mere speed and convenience.

So there - there's my counter rant!

-A

 

[pesphoto]

Well, yes - used to do that at times with my old XA. Cumbersome at best and it totally defeats the purpose of the "rangefinder way" that Nick is preaching.

I would propose this. The "rangefinder way," if there is such a thing, is about control and craftsmanship and precision combined with quickness. It is about knowing the light and anticipating situations and being able to precisely place the plane of focus.

Any quickness that comes at the cost of this control essentially defeats the rangefinder way. Any AF SLR with matrix metering will meter more accurately and focus quicker than a center-weighted AE only camera with a dicey rangefinder. So if you want simple quickness, you're better off with those. But the rangefinder way isn't just quickness. It is when you refuse to let a machine decide the plane of focus and want the quickest way to do it yourself. It is about knowing how to meter by eye and also knowing when AE will not be enough. From Speed Graphics to the M8, that has been the rangefinder way - being in perfect control when others sacrifice parts of that control for mere speed and convenience.

So there - there's my counter rant!

-A

The rangefinder way? Oy.
To be honest I dont think about it that much, I just go out and shoot, fast, slow, upside down, backwards....just make images.

my counter to your counter

 

[moretto]

The rangefinder way? Oy.
To be honest I dont think about it that much, I just go out and shoot, fast, slow, upside down, backwards....just make images.

my counter to your counter

and hats off to You. Me and my rangefinders go out for a walk, we shoot 50 asa film and enjoy. When I decide I'll go to Grobnik racing track and shoot some bikes and cars at 200+ kmh, I take my SLR with massive zoom, 800 asa film and shoot away. And I also do it in aperture priority, by the way. But that's far from enjoing an quiet afternoon.

UUUpss..i said slr..and zoom:bang:

 

[MikeCassidy]

My manuals [or is it manuel], it is not aperture or shutter dominated, its whatever I want; I've a old Rollie TRL and an old M3.

I do think about how much depth of field I want or what shutter speed I need to stop something moving.

Truthfull I lose frames to bad exposures I think anyone not using TLM loses exposures.

As for ASA ahhhhhh someone as old as me.

 

[Dave Wilkinson]

This thread started with assumptions that did'nt describe my methods of the past forty years, and then went on to sometimes mildly amusing bullsh*t!. The Electro 35GT that I had for a few months was a nice camera....and yes, the lens was exellent, but made at the time when more use was being made of plastic and pressed steel, to me it did not have the feel of a finely engineered camera,-yes, I know it did'nt have the cost, either!....and that viewfinder, with the thick yellow lines, with rounded corners!...ugh!, - now look through your Canon 7, or 'M' nice general purpose cheap camera - yes!.....world class, no! - I'll now retire to the fall-out shelter - PDQ!!

Cheers, Dave.

 

[NickTrop]

This thread started with assumptions that did'nt describe my methods of the past forty years, and then went on to sometimes mildly amusing bullsh*t!. The Electro 35GT that I had for a few months was a nice camera....and yes, the lens was exellent, but made at the time when more use was being made of plastic and pressed steel, to me it did not have the feel of a finely engineered camera,-yes, I know it did'nt have the cost, either!....and that viewfinder, with the thick yellow lines, with rounded corners!...ugh!, - now look through your Canon 7, or 'M' nice general purpose cheap camera - yes!.....world class, no! - I'll now retire to the fall-out shelter - PDQ!!

Cheers, Dave.

You admit the lens was excellent. It is. As far as "engineering" it has the capability to be aperture-priority with a stepless shutter, and therefore is a far better tool than the other cameras you mentioned, and its engineering relatively "space-age" in real terms. It is, literally, "as good" as modern micro-processor cameras because once they were able to engineer "RF+aperture priority+stepless shutter" it was endgame. Yashica won. That's all that was, is, or ever will be needed for RF-style photography. And if your camera - regardless of manufacturer, price, whatever, if it doesn't have these ingredients, it's an inferior photographic tool. Period. Doesn't matter if Yashica achieved stepless shutter + aperture priority with crude DC electronics, PLCs, or microprocessors, how this capability is achieved is/was immaterial and is entirely irrelevant. That's why this camera is relevant today with computerized models. The computer capabilities, in fact, resulted in so much superfluous, cluttering, unnecessary and irrelevant features; increased cost; lowered price/performance ratios; and inability to repair it actually made the modern cameras INferior to the Electro line. The Electros have a simple elegance. The best solutions are the simple ones. There is such a thing as "elegance" in this regard, and "kluge" which is the case of modern cameras.

The Electro blows the cameras you mentioned and modern more "advanced cameras away both in terms of engineering and as a photographic tool. With all due respect, I'm more concerned with how something "feels" if purchasing a pair of loafers - not cameras. The Electros lasted as long as the other cameras you've mentioned, despite being mass produced - toss up as to which ones held up better, so they were engineered pretty well from this perspective. As for being made of "plastic" and "pressed steel", they used the appropriate materials and are equally rugged. There doesn't seem to me to be much plastic in them at all. The little knob atop the rewinder? Is that what you're talking about? That's the only plastic piece I can think of. Maybe the take-up spool. Mine has film in it but I think it's metal too. So what if it t'aint. From a pure manufacturing perspective, these cameras were a homerun too. Yashica was able to create a - BY FAR - superior camera, at a FAR lower cost per unit, than Canon, Leica, Nikons of the day. Isn't that also a goal of engineering?

Bottom line. It's a far better photographic tool, because of its aperture priority and stepless shutter capabilities (with a lens that's "on par" with the others) than the cameras you've mentioned. RF + aperture priority + stepless shutter + fast excellent lens = best RF ever made as a photographic tool, even if the unimportant and overrated characteristic of "build quality" - which does not impact the photo in any way whatsoever, is superior (extraneous?) in the cameras you cite. The "build quality" of the Electro is good enough, not "excessive" adding cost with little to no benefit to the end user. They're like "diamond encrusted" laptops. Does the "diamond encrusted" laptop made of the "very finest" lah de das that can survive an 8 foot "drop test" out perform a simple "well made" laptop of "good enough" quality? The "diamond encrusted" laptop costs 10X more, but I say all it buys you is "bragging rights". Is my cheap 1969 Timex maual watch that cost $25 shipped "not as good" as a "rare" $1000 21 Jewel Omega Seamaster if they both keep accurate time?

The Electros survived the decades as well as the others you've mentioned, and are superiour in every way as a photographic tool. If you don't like them and are intellectually honest, it's because they don't cost a lot and are plentiful and are therefore not recognized as the superior (far superior) tool they are for RF-style photography both in the era they were created, and indeed in modern times, including digitals.
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[edit] Furthermore, if the Electros were less successful - say like the cameras you cited as determined by the lower production duration and runs, as dictated by the demand curves/market forces when they were produced, and therefore less plentiful, you would be paying as much for these as you would for your inferior as a photographic tool "Canon Ps".

 

[RobScumaci]

That must be why I like my Lynx.

 

[NickTrop]

That must be why I like my Lynx.

The Lynx might be the only camera that is marginally better than the Electro, because of its true "manual" capabilities. It can be either aperture-priority or shutter priority with both controls on the lens barrel. It takes skill to master the camera's capabilities and I would say a couple years to use it to its potential. However, the GSN might edge it out because of the speed of operation if offers intrinsic to its brilliant design.

 

[d_ross]

My GS GT and GTN all have an asa dial that goes up to 1000 ?

And, my Electro's can all read my mind and give the exact shutter spped=exposure I want, every time, so I'm with Nick

And and, on pretensions, I was out the other day with the GT and stopped to talk to some friends and this guy with them says " nice Leica" !!

 

[d_ross]

Actually, with Electros, you CAN control shutter speed by adjusting your ASA dial. In effect, creating a "manual" camera of sorts and having more control over the outcome for certain scenes, avoiding that "middle Gray" you speak of if that is what is desired.

or you can set the dial to flash setting and get a 1/30th and adjust aperture to suit the amount of over-under you want. works esp good if you use Pan F or other slow film.

 

[btgc]

The Lynx might be the only camera that is marginally better than the Electro, because of its true "manual" capabilities.

I started with Electro as first RF, and haven't put it away. I got one with working mercury battery and learned about replacements. I learned that in dim light I have to drop ISO couple of stops below real to get more realistic shutter times. But buttersmooth shutter button of Lynxes is just stealing me - probably I put too thick POD (2mm as I recall) in Electro but it's button travels too long'n'stiff. Probably I should try another Electro to compare.

What anybody feel about Electro series shutter button ?

 

[NickTrop]

I started with Electro as first RF, and haven't put it away. I got one with working mercury battery and learned about replacements. I learned that in dim light I have to drop ISO couple of stops below real to get more realistic shutter times. But buttersmooth shutter button of Lynxes is just stealing me - probably I put too thick POD (2mm as I recall) in Electro but it's button travels too long'n'stiff. Probably I should try another Electro to compare.

What anybody feel about Electro series shutter button ?

Something with your camera - not stiff at all. Not something you think about.
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[btgc]

Something with your camera - not stiff at all. Not something you think about.

So it should trip with same ease as on Lynxes, just a bit longer travel ? Well, it isn't so stiff that requires titanic force to press it down, just missing that feather-like feeling. If Electro would release lighter, I'd use it more.

Having only one camera from breed is downside not being able to compare directly, that's why I'm asking.

 

[d_ross]

I think a few peole are missing Nicks point here, obviously if you want to print large scale highly detailed landscapes for example then obviuosly the Electro isnt the best camera ever. Nick is talking about reaction photography on the move with no time for contemplation. The point he makes is the scarily accurate meter and the stepless shutter which combined means all you have to do is focus and turn the aperture ring for whatever you want be it shallow depth of field of motion blurr.
I totally agree with him, and if you have time you can overide the metering almost as easy as you can with most manual cameras.

I'm sure mine read my mind

 

[NickTrop]

I think a few peole are missing Nicks point here, obviously if you want to print large scale highly detailed landscapes for example then obviuosly the Electro isnt the best camera ever. Nick is talking about reaction photography on the move with no time for contemplation. The point he makes is the scarily accurate meter and the stepless shutter which combined means all you have to do is focus and turn the aperture ring for whatever you want be it shallow depth of field of motion blurr.
I totally agree with him, and if you have time you can overide the metering almost as easy as you can with most manual cameras.

I'm sure mine read my mind

Yes - "d_ross" gets it. Add him to the list. You pass the test and understand RF-style photography. You are hereby a certified RF Photographer. Congratulations. (In order to get "certified" you must understand my point about the Electros. It's a one question final to earn certification.)

The Electro, for the reasons nicely summarized by d_ross, is the best camera ever made for RF photography not by "a little". By far. It is not only a better camera for RF-style shooting than any Leica/lens combo, it is a better photographic tool by far than any Leica/lens combo. It is better than the Konicas, Minoltas, Fujis, Voightlander/Cosina or any other 35mm rangefinder you can name.

It is far better suited for this purpose than any other camera ever made regardless of price. To compete with the Yashica for this style of photography, the "other" camera must be aperture priority. 95% of all makes and models ever produced are not (Yashica had the patents, I think. "Lent" them to Minolta for one of the Hi Matics, I think) - maybe more. One of the two "main controls" must be stepless. RF-style photography - which as pointed out, is not every type of photography, requires a master-slave relationship between aperture (master), shutter (slave) with the shutter being a "stepless" slave.

The Yashica engineers were the only photographic engineers to understand this back in the 60's, and created a RF-photography tool that blew every other RF away. Period. It was way ahead of its time then, and is still perhaps the only photographic tool for this purpose today.

The few other cameras that give you this are inferior because they are over-engineered, and fail miserably in the price/value scale by comparison relative to the Yashica, and/or their shutter is not stepless.

Also, do not discount the Electro's ability to premeter with the over/under diales on the top plate. This allows you to get the "aperture range" for the scene, and set the aperture before you even raise the camera to your eye.

The mandatory requirements for RF-style photography:

- a fast good performer of a lens (check)
- Aperture priority (check)
- Stepless shutter (or stepless aperture) (check)
- Parallax corrected finder (check)
- Ability to premeter scene w/o raising camera to your eye (check)
- An accurate meter with good low-light capabilities (check)
- Ability to meter at least to ASA 800 (check)
- A nearly silent trigger

These mandatory required list precludes virtually every rangefinder ever made, regardless of price, except for most of the Yashica Electros. Any cameras other that might meet this list, fail to the Electo, miserably fail, in the value proposition.

 

[Al Patterson]

Better than the Konica Auto S3? And, which is better the silver ones or the black ones?

Seriousy, I really liked the shots I got with the GSN.

 

[marke]

Betchya 99% of users, if they're honest, use their coupled meter "manual" cameras exactly as if they're shutter priority cameras.

I'm honest, and I guess I'm in the 1%. I can see your point, Nick, but most of the time I set my aperture and get my eye up to the VF. It's very easy to set my shutter speed while looking through the VF, and that's the way I usually shoot. The only thing bugging me right now is going back and forth between the MP and the M6 TTL. I'll probably sell my M6 TTL soon and get an original M6 or another MP.

 

[chikne]

Before I read this thread I would have been keen to buy an Electro RF. After reading it I think I will think a bit longer...

 

[dukovac]

Electros - worst lowlight RF cameras ever

Electros - worst lowlight RF cameras ever

70's RFs with aperture priority like Yashica and Oly XA are IMHO the worst low light rangefinders ever. At low light you will often get the best shot if you spot meter your object of interest (like face), leaving the rest of the picture in darkness. Which most of the time means that the integral meter of those cameras will read underexposure of one or two stops. Yashica and XA will allways compensate by prolonging the exposure, which (if you shoot at night under street lights or in a dim lit café) unfortunately happens to be in the range which will give you blurred pictures if handholded. Even a simple full AE camera like Konica C35 will allow you to shoot 1/30 sec at 2.8, which can give you better pictures if your point of interest happen to be correctly exposured at that speed. (Beware of cameras like Oly RC which forces you to switch to the full manual mode as it doesn't fire if it reads underexposure even by one half of a stop). Yashica and the XA will overexposure the face, make the background grey instead of black (well ok those things can be corrected afterwards) and give you blurred picture due to longer exposure. If only they would have a kind of exposure limit on handholdable 1/30 or 1/20... Or spot metering like Oly SP... Or high ISO setting with which you could underexpose a stop or two and get into a handholdable shutter speed. Or full manual exposure... (Of course Yashicas have exposure lock but using it makes your moment capturing impossible...)
Shutter priority cameras on the other side will rob you the opportunity of extending DOF in lowlight. But this is mostly not that important in real lowlight as you will have to shoot wide open anyway.
However, for the daylight I admit that I also prefer aperture priority for the DOF control and for contrast/quality control.