Your manual camera is really shutter priority! Electros - best cameras EVER?

[cmedin]

Weirdest rant I've seen in a while, and about as inaccurate as it gets based on what I've seen.

Also, not all cameras have the shutter dial in an inconvenient place.

 

[Anupam]

You either agree with my assertion - because it's obvious and clearly true beyond a shadow of a doubt, or you don't truly understand RF photography.

I certainly don't understand what the heck you're talking about. I always shoot street scenes with the shutter speed in mind and set exposure via aperture. One look at my flickr stream will tell you why - I love to explore motion.

And what happens if you don't agree with the built in meter's interpretation of the scene? In my case that happens quite a lot of the time. Maybe I shoot in tricky light. Maybe I want to place my zones differently than the center weighted meter. I shoot a lot at night and almost always meter by eye. An AE only camera is dead weight in those situations for precise shooting. The Electros are good cameras. But these wild claims of "best ever" are a joke! If that means I don't understand RF shooting, so be it.

-A

 

[NickTrop]

Weirdest rant I've seen in a while, and about as inaccurate as it gets based on what I've seen.

Also, not all cameras have the shutter dial in an inconvenient place.

Nope. I am 100% correct. Unconventional wisdom is often regarded as "weird" until others put aside their biases, have a moment of intellectual honesty, and "see the light". The only place to put a shutter speed setting that is not inconvenient to the extent that you will use your manual camera as a "virtual shutter priority" camera, and accept whatever aperture your camera gives you, is if it's on the lens barrel. You use your manual camera as a shutter priority camera almost every time. You either accept the aperture and "acquiesce" aesthetic control over the most important aspect of the image - the DOF, to the camera; or you're futzing with your shutter settings (unlikely) to get the aperture you want, but by that time, your subject just got on the bus and is 1/2-way to Schenectady already.

No other camera - Leicas, Contaxes, Hexars, Zeissesses, Voigtlander-branded Cosinas... regardless of cost gives you the amount of speed required for "decisive moment capture" in combination with the level of aesthetic control, as a photograhic tool, than the RF+aperture priority design of the Electro series.

 

[bmattock]

The only place to put a shutter speed setting that is not inconvenient to the extent that you will use your manual camera as a "virtual shutter priority" camera, and accept whatever aperture your camera gives you, is if it's on the lens barrel.

But that's where most of mine are. I am missing something here.

You use your manual camera as a shutter priority camera almost every time. You either accept the aperture and "acquiesce" aesthetic control over the most important aspect of the image - the DOF, to the camera; or you're futzing with your shutter settings (unlikely) to get the aperture you want, but by that time, your subject just got on the bus and is 1/2-way to Schenectady already.

I think you're making some big assumptions about what kind of photographs I take. When I'm street shooting, I generally don't set either the f-stop or the shutter speed - I'm shooting manual and have pre-set both based on general conditions. Often, I don't even focus, just depend on DoF and give my attention to framing and composition.

And if I'm not street-shooting, I've got time to futz with the mechanicals.

No other camera - Leicas, Contaxes, Hexars, Zeissesses, Voigtlander-branded Cosinas... regardless of cost gives you the amount of speed required for "decisive moment capture" in combination with the level of aesthetic control, as a photograhic tool, than the RF+aperture priority design of the Electro series.

The only one of those I have is the Voigtlander (Cosina) Bessa R. And that one - gets the 'set and forget' treatment unless the little arrows in the viewfinder make me think conditions have changed a great deal since I last adjusted it.

I'm pretty good for making bold outlandish statements about how people ought to do things - but I seldom make weird assertions about the way they actually do things. How could I? I have no idea how others' brains work.

 

[NickTrop]

did you check the link? You should.... ;- )

Read it. Prices up. Folks balking. That's because people are realizing what I'm saying and these cameras are coming more in demand. Because they are readily available - and relatively cheap, they are way undervalued. Doesn't mean anything other than from a "mass market"/group psychology/nature of the market" standpoint. The fact is - Electros are not only "the" best, but they are far and away "the" best RF (except perhaps the Minster and Lynx models) despite disparity in price with other inferior makes - including Leicas, because of their aperture priority system (plus a lens that's close enough to the expensive "halo effect" lenses for it not to matter). If you can not understand this, you do not understand the nature of RF photography and need to watch that HCB documentary ten times or as many times needed until it sinks in.

 

[mackigator]

I take your point vs "manual" cameras like my Bessa R2.

But how is the Electro better than modern aperture priority setups? Bessa R*A, Hexar RF, CLE, M7, etc? Just the stepless shutter thing, I guess?

 

[NickTrop]

But that's where most of mine are. I am missing something here.

What other film rangefinder camera, if you think a scene would look best at f2.8, just lets you set the aperture at f2.8 and shoot instantly (and silently), that's uses a parralax-corrected RF, that will set its stepless shutter (which allows perfect exposures to the second, not the stop) automatically? Plus, you have the ability to premeter. You set it to f4 or f2.8 - based on your aesthetics, no light, you're okay for hand-held within that range given the lighting conditions, at that exact aperture, and you shoot rapidly, capturing the "decisive moment" at the exact aperture you want, instantly, like the Electro? None.

 

[bmattock]

Read it. Prices up. Folks balking. That's because people are realizing what I'm saying and these cameras are coming more in demand. Because they are readily available - and relatively cheap, they are way undervalued. Doesn't mean anything other than from a "mass market"/group psychology/nature of the market" standpoint. The fact is - Electros are not only "the" best, but they are far and away "the" best RF (except perhaps the Minster and Lynx models) despite disparity in price with other inferior makes - including Leicas, because of their aperture priority system (plus a lens that's close enough to the expensive "halo effect" lenses for it not to matter). If you can not understand this, you do not understand the nature of RF photography and need to watch that HCB documentary ten times or as many times needed until it sinks in.

Hey, I've got a couple of GSNs and a couple GTs myself. Love 'em. Don't use 'em that much, but the lenses are very nice.

But let's not pretend they don't have a couple of drawbacks.

1) ISO settings. The Gs and GTs only go up to 400, the GSN and GTN go up to what, 800? 1000? I can't recall at the moment. Not always the best for street shooting if you get into available light situations.

2) Metering with filters. The meter isn't inside the lens, or even on the beauty ring. Mount a filter, now you have to play 'fiddle with the ISO' to try to adjust for filter factors.

3) RF image isn't always the best on the GSN, IMHO.

4) That Yashica clunk. Quiet shutter - loud wind-on.

5) If the electronics fail, the camera is a boat-anchor. I have several examples, purchased on eBay, which do not work. Unlike a meter failure in a vintage camera capable of manual settings, when an Electro's meter don't work, it's a paperweight.

Be that as it may - I love the Electros. I suspect they are not as undervalued as they are plentiful. They made those things by the boat-load for years. Very popular camera. So there are lots of them about.

Anyway, I am still not getting the part where you insist that everyone actually prefers to shoot shutter-priority. I have a lot of Canon FD-mount SLRS. All except the shutter-priority models. I don't have any of those because I don't like shutter- priority.

 

[NickTrop]

I take your point vs "manual" cameras like my Bessa R2.

But how is the Electro better than modern aperture priority setups? Bessa R*A, Hexar RF, CLE, M7, etc? Just the stepless shutter thing, I guess?

These are great "runners up" because of their aperture priority capabilities. The best system for RF's - far and away, is aperture priority. So much so, that any RF camera without this capability is not even worth considering. These cameras may give you that crucial capability, but fall short due to their lack of a stepless shutter - so their exposures are less accurate than the Electros (you can quibble about minor variances in "lens tests" so I'll quibble about inaccuracies up to 1/2 a stop theoretically with non-stepless shutters), and fall way, way short in their price/performance ratios relative to the Yashica Electros.

 

[bmattock]

What other film rangefinder camera, if you think a scene would look best at f2.8, just lets you set the aperture at f2.8 and shoot instantly (and silently), that's uses a parralax-corrected RF, that will set its stepless shutter (which allows perfect exposures to the second, not the stop) automatically? Plus, you have the ability to premeter. You set it to f4 or f2.8 - based on your aesthetics, no light, you're okay for hand-held within that range given the lighting conditions, at that exact aperture, and you shoot rapidly, capturing the "decisive moment" at the exact aperture you want, instantly, like the Electro? None.

I don't know what other cameras have that sensibility, Nick, but I do know it is not an asset I value highly. Truly. I guess the XA, right? Another camera that you can't set the shutter speed on.

I'm sorry, but I also can't name another car besides the 1973 Volkswagon Super Beetle that offered an electric clutch activated whenever you touched the gearshift. All I know is I hated it. The fact that nobody else did it should have told VW something - and it should have told Yashica something too. It was either too advanced for us plebes, or it just wasn't that great of an idea.

 

[NickTrop]

bmattock -

1. 1000 is plenty, which is what the GSN goes up to. Over 1000? Not enough photons, use a flash. Only meters to 400? 500? You should be shooting black and white anyway. Meter at the max speed, push it a stop in development. Results will be better anyway.

2. No fiddling. Just set it. Once. Based on the filter factor.

3. No problem with it. Usable in any lighting condition. Not the brightest but the contrast is what matters for focus.

4. Easy solution. Apply a little downward pressure with your index finger to the trigger as you advance the film. Completely silent, no "clunk". Doesn't hurt the camera at all.

5. If anything breaks beyond repair its a boat anchor. (Though I wouldn't use a camera for this purpose. Your boat would drift too much...)

 

[NickTrop]

I don't know what other cameras have that sensibility, Nick, but I do know it is not an asset I value highly. Truly. I guess the XA, right? Another camera that you can't set the shutter speed on.

I'm sorry, but I also can't name another car besides the 1973 Volkswagon Super Beetle that offered an electric clutch activated whenever you touched the gearshift. All I know is I hated it. The fact that nobody else did it should have told VW something - and it should have told Yashica something too. It was either too advanced for us plebes, or it just wasn't that great of an idea.

You have to value it. The aperture determines how you photo will look. It is the most crucial control in photography.

 

[bmattock]

bmattock -

1. 1000 is plenty, which is what the GSN goes up to. Over 1000? Not enough photons, use a flash.

Not always possible. In fact, often not. Now I suspect you're pulling my leg.

2. No fiddling. Just set it. Once. Based on the filter factor.

There goes that ISO 1000, then.

3. No problem with it. Usable in any lighting condition. Not the brightest but the contrast is what matters for focus.

Whatever you want to call it, I certainly find other fixed-lens rangefinders have a better viewfinder patch for focusing in dim light - and the newer Bessa R is just leagues better.

4. Easy solution. Apply a little downward pressure with your index finger to the trigger as you advance the film. Completely silent, no "clunk". Doesn't hurt the camera at all.

Didn't know that, thanks! I'll have to give it a try.

5. If anything breaks its a boat anchor.

If the electronics go out in my Bessa R, the mechanical shutter still works at all speeds. Same for all my mechanical cameras which lack electronics at all. As I've said, my batting average for DOA Electros is rather high - but I have managed to snag a couple of good working models, and they're quite good indeed.

I did forget to mention one annoying little habit the Electro has - the exposure indicator lights still work while the shutter no longer is speaking to the meter. You get the default 1/500 shutter speed and THINK it's working, because the lights work. If it's a sunny day and you're shooting at f/8, you might be in luck. I remember that as being one of my first idiot newbie questions when I first got to RFF back in the bad old days.

 

[Anupam]

If you can not understand this, you do not understand the nature of RF photography and need to watch that HCB documentary ten times or as many times needed until it sinks in.

Instead of getting up in people's faces and telling them how they ought to be shooting, how about some HCB qualty shots from your magic camera? Poor HCB had to manage with meterless manual Ms. But he could meter by eye - can you? Or do you always shoot scenes that average out to middle gray and depend on the meter reading the Electro provides?

I have owned Electros, but for serious use I'd never consider a camera that doesn't allow manual override. I decide the exposure - not the camera.

1000 is plenty, which is what the GSN goes up to. Over 1000? Not enough photons, use a flash.

Have you ever shot on the street at night with flash?

-A

 

[NickTrop]

PS. I'm done for tonight. Nice chatting. I'm also completely correct. Goin' over to Netfilx to stream episodes of Johnny Sokko and his Flying Robot. TTYL. No sense in arguing. I dubbed myself "infallible" like the Pope several years ago. Once I assert something, it is automatically "correct" in and of itself by virtue of the fact that I made the assertion. Night all.

 

[bmattock]

You have to value it. The aperture determines how you photo will look. It is the most crucial control in photography.

I said I set the aperture. But I also balance that against the shutter speed and the speed of my film / filter combo. In any case, although I am one who often agrees with you that aperture is my preferred knob for creative control, there is so much more - photography is nothing if not a set of compromises. Aperture is not the most crucial control - that bit is located in my skull.

Is this a test of some kind? I usually find you to be quite sensible.

 

[NickTrop]

Is this a test of some kind? I usually find you to be quite sensible.

...just having fun. 100% sensible alla time is boring. But thanks for the kind words.

 

[bmattock]

...just having fun. 100% sensible alla time is boring.

Truer words was never spoke. Have a good one, I'm about to tipple and should not be allowed near keyboards until the base fog clears.

 

[jan normandale]

... No sense in arguing. I dubbed myself "infallible" like the Pope several years ago. Once I assert something, it is automatically "correct" in and of itself by virtue of the fact that I made the assertion. Night all.

Nick, ya didn't check with me first on this. We better have a chat, this could be serious.

;- )

BTW "johnny socko and his flying robot" ?

FWIW : this is a contender for my "best thread of the week!"

 

[underbyte]

One more plug for an Electro. The 35CC has the meter on the front above the lens like a QL17. Now, you have metering through the filter. And, there is no shutter smoother nor quieter than the leaf shutter on the Electros. I wouldn't use them as my only camera but they have their place for sure. The focal plane shutter on my CLA'd Leica CL is like a train going by compared to the leaf shutters on the 70's cheap rangefinders. They all make images, but I get a certain decadent delight out of making pictures with $20-30 cameras. That would be my GT and GS. The 35CC was NOT $20. It must be better....

P.S. The shutter on the Minolta Himatic E is actually quieter than the Yashicas. It is almost not detectable. That said, I don't like the camera and don't trust it. Quiet though.