A hole in S3 2000 shutter curtain

[thompsonks]

I was appalled to find that my minty black S3 2000 now has a hole in the shutter curtain. I need to have it replaced.

1. I can't use DIY advice (way too clumsy). I need advice on who in the US will do this well. I've had Essex work on an S2 and thought they were a bit careless (instructions overlooked, and a new light scratch). I know that DAG is willing to work on Nikon RFs, but I doubt he has Nikon parts. Who might be the most skilled/reliable repair person with a replacement shutter curtain?

2. I understand that a lot of SP and S3 parts are interchangeable. Is it possible to have an S3 cloth curtain replaced with a titanium curtain?

3. How-the-*ell doe this sort of thing happen? The hole appears as a pinpoint at the bottom of negatives (and with a bright flashlight at the horizontal top); also as you might expect as large flare spot on some negatives. I can see a very slight abrasion at the site of the round pinhole. I haven't been pointing the camera at the sun or leaving the body without a lens on for the cat to play with. The only thing I've recently done differently is to mount a recently-acquired CV 25mm S-mount lens on the body. There's a hole in the first frame with that lens and none that I can see on previous rolls. A possible cause?

Advice greatly appreciated,

Kirk

 

[alfredian]

Repair is feasible, and cheaper

Repair is feasible, and cheaper

I have a minty-in-box with lens, case & all the fluff stuff. First two rolls of film had a pair of circles at the lower right - pinholes. I calculated 0.7 mm for the nice round one. Fellow who sold it to me price A)replacement ($250+ whether or not you ship to Japan or keep it here). Second option was repair the the pro shop in downtown DC. I chose the latter and it works just fine. My S3 2000 (black) was purchased to be a user, not a shelf-sitter.

The pro shop fellow (years in the biz) has a proprietary (secret?) way of concocting the goop. Applying is in several layers, gently.

I've had far better luck getting parts for my S2 bodies, even RNOS (repaiman's new old stock).

That's all I have to offer. I agree with your bias to NOT DIY - you can fritter away a lot of trials (and errors) before you get it right. Or wreck it completely. Good luck.

 

[Tom A]

I had the same thing happen with my black S3 2000. Luckily enough on the last roll of our trip to Europe in May/June (Nikon meet in Paris). Looks like a tear in the curtain - rather than a pinhole. Lower center of the curtain, about 2 mm long and 0.5 mm wide. Contemplating either to put a patch on it or mix up some black silicon sealer and "paint" it. You simply dilute the black silicon with acid stopbath until it becomes liquid and the brush it on carefully. You might have to do it several times ( it is better to do a thin coverage each time) - and let it dry between applications. DO NOT advance while it is drying as it can stick to the shutter drum if you do.
You can convert the cloth shutter to titanium if you are willing to pay for it - though it will be marginally more noisy if you do.

 

[thompsonks]

"Which camera have you got? Chrome reissue S3s were released in 2000, black reissue S3s were released in 2002, reissue SPs (only available in black) were released in 2005."


Sorry, I thought that was clear – it's a black S3, such as people call a '2000' or 'limited edition.' Perhaps released in 2002, as you say, but LNIB until I began using it this year.

Does this make a difference as to shutter curtain problem/repair?


I'm not worried about keeping it 'original'; I just use it to take pictures.

Kirk

PS, I'd still like to know whom to trust with this kind of repair.

 

[rbsinto]

I was appalled to find that my minty black SP 2000 now has a hole in the shutter curtain. I need to have it replaced.

1. I can't use DIY advice (way too clumsy). I need advice on who in the US will do this well. I've had Essex work on an S2 and thought they were a bit careless (instructions overlooked, and a new light scratch). I know that DAG is willing to work on Nikon RFs, but I doubt he has Nikon parts. Who might be the most skilled/reliable repair person with a replacement shutter curtain?

2. I understand that a lot of SP and S3 parts are interchangeable. Is it possible to have an S3 cloth curtain replaced with a titanium curtain?

3. How-the-*ell doe this sort of thing happen? The hole appears as a pinpoint at the bottom of negatives (and with a bright flashlight at the horizontal top); also as you might expect as large flare spot on some negatives. I can see a very slight abrasion at the site of the round pinhole. I haven't been pointing the camera at the sun or leaving the body without a lens on for the cat to play with. The only thing I've recently done differently is to mount a recently-acquired CV 25mm S-mount lens on the body. There's a hole in the first frame with that lens and none that I can see on previous rolls. A possible cause?

Advice greatly appreciated,

Kirk

Where are you located?
I've got a couple of old beat-up F parts bodies, and if you can't source a shutter elsewhere, your repair person could strip the shutter from one and use it in a repair.
I'd give you a body if you'd pay the postage.
Let me know.

 

[_goodtimez]

That issue pretty looks like a warranty case to me.
On the other hand the idea of installing the F shutter sounds cool. Follow it up please.

 

[thompsonks]

Thank you, rbsinto – I sent a PM.

And thank you, goodtimes, for the warranty suggestion; but I don't think these remain under warranty (though I still have the blank card).

KIrk

 

[enasniearth]

Shutter hole

Shutter hole

I had ken Ruth at photography on bald mountain repair a hole in a black Nikon s2 shutter . He punched a circle out of new curtain material and glued it to the existing curtain , mine was part of a complete camera overhaul . The black s2 is fairly valuable and I wanted to retain the original shutter curtains.
It is probably possible to do this without taking the camera apart .

The wide angle is the culprit , the view is so wide that the sun is easily focused to a nice bright point spot on the curtain , and burns it like a magnifying glass from when we were kids .

To put titanium curtains in a Nikon rf , first the donar f must be disassembled
And the curtains carefully removed from the shutter drums .
Then the s3 must be disassembled the old curtains removed , the new curtains cut to length and glued to the drums in proper position .
Then the shutter mechanism must be retimed .
To disassemble the s3 the plastic leather comes off the front , then there are screws to separate the shutter chamber from the front plate .

Could be costly ,
the curtain patch will not affect the running speed of the shutter , and is less .

You can find ken on the Internet and call him he is in California .

Cameraquest lists titanium replacement in Nikon rf in their repair section
Cost is $175 when doing a $195 overhaul , $370 total . They may have a better
Price since you don't need the overhaul . Cameraquest.com

Hope this is of help .

 

[kdemas]

Kirk,

If you call Nikon USA they most likely will have NO idea what camera you're talking about. I called twice when I had the same camera as you and couldn't get a person who knew anything about the camera, let alone about the parts I was asking about (such as a replacement baseplate). Don't be surprised if they keep thinking you're talking about the little old S3 P&S from a few years back.

Kent

 

[icebear]

I did a DIY on a Leica MP shutter curtain with a toothpick and a tiny amount of "liquid electrical tape" (e.g. from home depot). Apply the tiniest amount you can apply from both sides of the shutter and leave everything dry open for 24 hrs. You have nothing to loose. You can't use it as is and have to repair it anyway. If your repair also works, you have save a couple of hundreds. The stuff will be permanently elastic, is black and totally light tight. You will need a bit of courage and a steady hand though, good luck. Worked for me.

 

[Highway 61]

For me this case is a no-brainer : go for the DIY job. This is really easy.

Several options : black latex paint, a compound of silk fibers mixed-up with cloth glue (or bikes tubes vulcan glue) and then covered with several thin layers of fabric-designed opaque black paint once all dried-up (this one is absolutely excellent for this purpose, I used it with great and durable success on several very heavily burned shutter curtains), black liquid electrical tape, small patch coming from some similar shutter cloth material and glued in place with some dedicated cloth glue... all of those methods will work flawlessly and will cost you around $5, plus roughly an hour of work (and some cups of coffee/tea 😉).

Having some titanium shutter curtains installed sounds seducing, but this will be very expensive (I'd say, around $350, total, even if you find out one good donator Nikon F shutter for almost free).

If there were many large holes in your cloth shutter, this would be the best way to do ; but for just one lone pinpoint hole...

 

[Dez]

If the hole is really small, the black paint option costs almost nothing and works well, but you cannot use just any paint. The trick is to get the maximum opacity with the minimum amount of material added to the shutter, and the stuff needs to remain flexible over the long term. The stuff I have used successfully is Mars Black Acrylic artist's paint, by M. Graham &Co. I thin it very slightly with water and rub it into the fabric of the curtain, with a fingertip on both sides of the cloth. If that is impractical, use a wooden tool such as a toothpick with a blunted end and a firm support on the other side of the curtain. Cover the smallest area you can manage. It dries very quickly.

But this is a very expensive and quite recent camera, and from some of the posts here, the pinhole problem seems to happen a lot. There's really no excuse for that. My 1958 SP has its original cloth curtains and there is no sign of wear. It completely defeats me why Nikon did not equip these extremely pricey re-issues with titanium shutter curtains- after all the original S3 got them in 1959. I would think that you may want to take it up as a quality issue with Nikon (sorry, Jon). Failing that, the titanium replacement curtain route sounds pretty good to me. For all you have invested in the camera already, that may be the best solution.

Cheers,
Dez

 

[thompsonks]

OK, I'll follow both kinds of advice here:

(1) temporary fix with the sort of 'liquid electrical tape' that Klaus mentioned, or the paint recommended by Dez; and then

(2) permanent fix with the metal F shutter that Robert so kindly offered. I will have DAG do this in due time, when he returns my S2 and its lenses.

I have just one more question:

In painting the spot with liquid tape or latex paint, should I put it on the back side of the shutter, the lens side, or a bit of both? I want to patch it well but don't want to create a bump.

And many thanks to all for your generous suggestions!

Kirk

 

[Dez]

Sounds like a good approach. I can't comment in the liquid electrical tape stuff, as I am not familiar with it. You need to choose your material based on how opaque it is in an extremely thin coat. Black silicone RTV for example is extremely flexible, but not very opaque when spread thin. Your repair should not increase the thickness of the curtain to any significant degree, and if done well, will be invisible. I don't think it matters which side you work from; it's usually just a matter of ease of access. However, if one side is noticeably coarser-grained than the other, that is probably your best bet, as it will allow better adhesion. Do make an effort to get the pigment into the cloth- a surface coat will eventually come off. And make certain that you support the reverse side of the curtain when rubbing the stuff in.

Good luck,
Dez

 

[thompsonks]

Before reading the last post I'd already gone to my local Blick store for a tube of Dez's Maarshall black acrylic paint. It's drying now and has filled the hole but still has a but of shine. So maybe others who are interested in the thread will prefer the route of matte black latex paint.

Cost of this DIY repair, $4.59.

But if the curtains are so easy to damage, I'm still interested in changing to metal. I'm haunted by Tom's story of a curtain tear on his recent Paris trip (fortunately near its end). I'd hate to bring home several rolls of pinholes and light flares.

Kirk

 

[Highway 61]

Re. how to repair damaged cloth focal plane shutters, there are two basic types of damages to consider :

• rubberized layer worn out with time (typical problem of Leica and FSU Leica copies shutters)
• random pinholes due to the sun (possible on all types of cloth shutters)

First case, the cloth material is still there while the rubberized layer is crackled / gone, either in small spots or large areas, and light goes through the cloth, which isn't opaque in itself. In this case, using special fabric-designed black opaque paint (like the Pebeo one I mentioned above) only, by painting the cloth side of the shutter with several very thin paint layers, will work perfectly and will last forever.

This cannot happen on a Nikon shutter because it's made of opaque silk and so there is no rubberized layer on one side of the shutter curtains.

Second case, there is a hole in the shutter curtain. So there is no fabric remaining.

There, the paint isn't enough. You cannot fill a hole with paint, even with high quality flexible one. Over time, the paint won't stay in the hole.

So the hole has to be filled with something designed to fill holes : liquid electrical tape, latex, compound made of cloth fibers and cloth glue, whatever is consistent and adhesive enough to fill a hole and stay in place over time.

Then, if not opaque enough by itself, the material used to fill the hole can be covered with a thin layer of fabric-designed black paint which will slightly spread around the hole surface so that it catches on the silk fibers.

And the Nikon shutter having two similar sides, this must be done on both the film and lens side.

 

[benmacphoto]

I'd suggest as others have with using black acrylic paint.
If the hole is a small pinhole.
I fixed a shutter curtain hole on an old Leica M I owned with a small dab of paint.

Or, the best option for long term use, send it to either Nikon or Cameraquest to get the curtains replaced.

 

[jonmanjiro]

Titanium baby 😎

 

[Highway 61]

Titanium baby 😎

The best from both worlds... or how to brilliantly end-up the Ancients vs. the Moderns quarrel... 😎

 

[jonmanjiro]

The best from both worlds... or how to brilliantly end-up the Ancients vs. the Moderns quarrel... 😎

A good cleaning of the modern optics in this particular S3's finder seems to have given the focus patch some extra "pop". I'd rate it as having the best focus patch I've ever seen in an S3. Not by a huge margin, but enough to be noticeable. The perfect S3 for shooting 😎