Sparrow
Veteran
... yes or that, take a second shot when its clear of people and fake it
Brutally honest critique thread
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... yes or that, take a second shot when its clear of people and fake it
Jamie Pillers
Skeptic
Hey people… use the "Quote" button!
Hey people… use the "Quote" button!
Hi everyone,
This thread is getting long, with a lot of interesting contributions. It would be helpful if, when you offer a critique or comment about someone else's image or comment, use the "Quote" button so we know what you're talking about, or to whom you're talking. Thanks.
Hey people… use the "Quote" button!
Hi everyone,
This thread is getting long, with a lot of interesting contributions. It would be helpful if, when you offer a critique or comment about someone else's image or comment, use the "Quote" button so we know what you're talking about, or to whom you're talking. Thanks.
Michael Markey
Veteran
Oh I know all the historical precidents .
I should also say that here should be no restrictions on folks creativity but I`m firmly in the Winogrand camp when it comes to street photography.
No its not all about "candid" but it is for me.
McCurry and Salgado ....I`m afraid that you`ve cited the two photographers who`s photography leaves me cold ...sorry about that.
You`ve acknowledge an important distinction and one that I`m now aware of when the critique is being offered.
I should also say that here should be no restrictions on folks creativity but I`m firmly in the Winogrand camp when it comes to street photography.
No its not all about "candid" but it is for me.
McCurry and Salgado ....I`m afraid that you`ve cited the two photographers who`s photography leaves me cold ...sorry about that.
You`ve acknowledge an important distinction and one that I`m now aware of when the critique is being offered.
Ranchu
Veteran
If it's not candid, it's not street photography. Gary Winogrand was a street photographer, Daido Moriyama is a street photographer. There's any number of photographers all over the world doing the same, candids. Those people setting up shots took some photos on streets.
"Ya, hi. My name is Ranchu, here's my card. Can I get you to stand a little closer to the horse? Great, just a second. Thanks! Maybe one more? Look over here? Great! Thanks so much, my flickr's on the card!"
Then what, pretend it was candid and call myself a street photographer, "you know, like Winogrand or Moriyama."
???
"Ya, hi. My name is Ranchu, here's my card. Can I get you to stand a little closer to the horse? Great, just a second. Thanks! Maybe one more? Look over here? Great! Thanks so much, my flickr's on the card!"
Then what, pretend it was candid and call myself a street photographer, "you know, like Winogrand or Moriyama."
???
Sparrow
Veteran
By coincidence I have a pile of Capa's prints on my desk some of which use confused gropes of people to really good effect ... you take a lot out of a photo when you take out the spontaneity I think
Is one more important than the other? ... depends on the photo
RichC
Well-known
I'd like to see those photos too - unless you mistyped "groups"! <grin>
What you say holds for landscapes too. A spontaneous landscape that simply wouldn't work if it appeared deliberately and carefully composed along traditional stultifying lines such as enforcing straight horizons...
The oft-derided William Eggleston [...] one my all-time favourite photographs: Untitled, Black Bayou Plantation, near Glendora, Mississippi, ca. 1970. It's just a photograph of some abandoned containers - yet Eggleston somehow makes us care about this scene and what's in it. It seems deeply significant, portentful, yet it's just a few lost bottles...
Pherdinand
the snow must go on
you've got a pile of Capa's prints on your desk?? "By coincidence"??
Dude! you're rich
Sparrow
Veteran
ah! yes ... whoops dyslexia again
... I faked a set of 4x6 prints from the last year of the spanish war and one of those agfa envelope that one got from the chemist years ago (in spanish with a Madrid address and R Capa's name in the customer box) distressed them with talcum powder, folds and wine stains as though they were found at the bottom of that suitcase ... like a prop for a film, though I didn't get round to doing the negs
... quite astonish to see them like that, none of the well known ones, coherent and with the same tone and finish. I showed them to the Manchester crowd
I still have a problem with that landscape of William's though, sorry, the tilt, the 50:50 sky to ground the object dropping out of the bottom RHS and the colour ... it just says 'avant guard' to me for no good purpose ... a litany of broken conventions made simply to carry his name, or because it could maybe. Same modernist conceptual ego thing that I find in 'famous artist' painting and print of the time
PS ... I've been studying the Spanish War for a couple of years now the 'prints' were to try get a better feel fot the times
Sparrow
Veteran
Fakes sadly
Ranchu
Veteran
The bottles would migrate around with the wind, making that rolling bottle sound in the heat.
RichC
Well-known
They would...
Certain kinds of photograph benefit from that feeling - that's part of what makes Winogrand images work (I don't hear that bottle sound when I look at his photos though...!).
I usually stage my photographs - but then that sense of spontaneity, that imagining of the sights and sound and smell of the pictured scene, isn't central to them but instead I evoke a sense of stillness and detachment. Detachment like that would be a killer for a lot of street photography, and some of the suggestions in this thread about how to compose and pose some of the candid photographs here would make the images worse not better - they'd be taxidermied versions of themselves, lifeless and without feeling.
RichC
Well-known
It's worth remembering that this photograph was taken in 1970, and is typical of his style and approach from that time. He wasn't famous then: it would be six years to his MOMA exhibition in 1976 - which was panned by most critics and reviled by the public. In 1970, Eggleston was essentially unknown and simply making what he thought were "good" pictures to please no one except himself; he wasn't being deliberately confrontational or Modernist with the aim of "shaking things up". His influence came later ... a lot later.
nongfuspring
Well-known
I don't think the difference between candid and planned photographs is at all an easy distinction to make - a photographer can never be a fully external observer or be completely in control of a scene. Candid and planned aren't mutually exclusive either, e.g. the way that HCB used unwitting pedestrians to complete his predetermined compositions. Even the act of taking a photo is unnatural and often a provocation.
Sparrow
Veteran
... I don't see it that way sorry, adding a narrative after the fact doesn't change quality of the image, the idea that the individual parts are 'good' by virtue of the whole being 'good' doesn't work for me ... your work (editing work) must expose you to that 'weakest-link' conundrum constantly.
Eggleston is one of those celebrity artist whom I simply cannot see past the celebrity bit, I see the imperfections as just that ... at best an affectation of 'style' if intentional, or a perpetuation of errors if not. He is one of those people of that era, and before, in my opinion parts of Modernism had sacrificed it's integrity long before 1970 ... almost every known 'name' from the end of the war that the hoi polloi trot out today is reliant on celebrity of the artist rather than the work itself
Michael Markey
Veteran
Well said Rich.
I`m not being fundamental about it ... place for everything but its useful to know where we`re all coming from on this.
A critique which suggested moving this here or there would be useless to me as regards my street photography.
I just don`t shoot like that (on the street) .
Like Winogrand said ...."I see life ...I don`t go around with pictures in my head".
Other times I do but not on the street
I`m not taking that Fixed- Explosive type of shot which HCB was famous for, for example.
I look more to Winogrand and Moriyama.
Sparrow
Veteran
... one reason to make it a conceptual piece? and looking at those clouds there would be little wind about
Pherdinand
the snow must go on
aha...
did they fall for it? what was the selling price?😀
PS i absolutely dislike that Eggleston shot. I get nothing of the hype. I probably "just don't get it" and "it's me, not the picture".
It's boring and ordinary.
It's a typical case of "i could have done the same but i would never waste film on it"
And no i dont care that it's done by Willam Hotshot Eggleston, i think it just sucks.
🙂
there, i said it- call me a barbarian-
(Same holds for Vivian Hotshot Maier's selfportraits, or at least the ones i've seen yet)
kuuan
loves old lenses
reading through this thread soon had me realize that I much dislike technically analytic critiques. They made me feel all dizzy and I hardly could read through them.
I guess that one of the main reasons why I like photography must be the very fact that photos can convey messages and feelings without needing words. And that I may use imagery to balance what otherwise for me are too head-heavy views, or rather opinions, of our world and lives.
a few photos that stand out for me and whose critiques surprised me because some of them express pretty much the opposite of my impression:
I love this photo ( yes, I just wrote that! ), how the couple have their moment, or rather 'corner' of privacy. For some reason I feel as if they have had a busy day on the streets, possibly during a New Years night or a shopping day before Christmas. I like the lighting, tones, grain and feel.
The critiques suggesting a crop on the left side, also those feeling disturbed by that light on top surprised me. Taking away the empty left side would take away the feeling of them being a bit secluded in a quiet spot by themselves, in the contrary I can imagine that I might like the space to the left to be even bigger. And I like the single small light on the far top, together with the New York letting they are what make me think that it must be temporary set up as for a special festival day.
I wonder if I'd prefer the slight tilt to go the other way, and then with even more space to the left, but I would not want it to be cropped, therefore it is fine as it is
this is really strange! My eyes wonder between the woman in the foreground and the guy in the background who strangely enough is wearing this Hawaiian Hula Hula dance skirt of sorts, and he is not even done dressing! My eye can't decide where to look or find more interest, something that usually I don't like in a photo but strangely here I like it's effect: Thoughts get eclipsed and I am left perplexed and enchanted.
the expression on her face says something like: "oh my gosh, so I spent all this time loving this guy and only now find out what a jerk he is' 😉 anyway, she seems a bit lost, and he bewildered because of it. I like the shopfronts and gutters in the background, they add to that lost and bewildered feelings, I don't feel the people or the car in the background to be disturbing at all, rather like them all as this somewhat 'dreadful and busy' environment make a great contrast for this halting for a private moment. Don't miss not being able to see the hands.
Sorry for having chosen photos that I much like, and therefore can't critique in a more 'brutal' way. There are some others that I like much too, the one of Farah the dog, the cows of Fish and the helicopter of Nenad come to mind. Take it as my brutal critique that for a big number, though certainly for not all of the others I would find it a waste of time to write critiques about 😉
I guess that one of the main reasons why I like photography must be the very fact that photos can convey messages and feelings without needing words. And that I may use imagery to balance what otherwise for me are too head-heavy views, or rather opinions, of our world and lives.
a few photos that stand out for me and whose critiques surprised me because some of them express pretty much the opposite of my impression:
I love this photo ( yes, I just wrote that! ), how the couple have their moment, or rather 'corner' of privacy. For some reason I feel as if they have had a busy day on the streets, possibly during a New Years night or a shopping day before Christmas. I like the lighting, tones, grain and feel.
The critiques suggesting a crop on the left side, also those feeling disturbed by that light on top surprised me. Taking away the empty left side would take away the feeling of them being a bit secluded in a quiet spot by themselves, in the contrary I can imagine that I might like the space to the left to be even bigger. And I like the single small light on the far top, together with the New York letting they are what make me think that it must be temporary set up as for a special festival day.
I wonder if I'd prefer the slight tilt to go the other way, and then with even more space to the left, but I would not want it to be cropped, therefore it is fine as it is
Ok ... I'm game, tear this one to bits! 😀
this is really strange! My eyes wonder between the woman in the foreground and the guy in the background who strangely enough is wearing this Hawaiian Hula Hula dance skirt of sorts, and he is not even done dressing! My eye can't decide where to look or find more interest, something that usually I don't like in a photo but strangely here I like it's effect: Thoughts get eclipsed and I am left perplexed and enchanted.
This is a fantastic thread. Here's a picture I took about a year ago walking in Manhattan. For some reason (that I hope someone can help me understand) it is by far the picture with the most likes in my Flickr Photostream. I am open to critiques and comments 🙂
A Manhattan couple by Mahler_seele, on Flickr
the expression on her face says something like: "oh my gosh, so I spent all this time loving this guy and only now find out what a jerk he is' 😉 anyway, she seems a bit lost, and he bewildered because of it. I like the shopfronts and gutters in the background, they add to that lost and bewildered feelings, I don't feel the people or the car in the background to be disturbing at all, rather like them all as this somewhat 'dreadful and busy' environment make a great contrast for this halting for a private moment. Don't miss not being able to see the hands.
Sorry for having chosen photos that I much like, and therefore can't critique in a more 'brutal' way. There are some others that I like much too, the one of Farah the dog, the cows of Fish and the helicopter of Nenad come to mind. Take it as my brutal critique that for a big number, though certainly for not all of the others I would find it a waste of time to write critiques about 😉
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Thanks for your thoughts kuuan ... much appreciated.
nightfly
Well-known
Clearly she should have know this earlier from the way he pulled back and knotted his hair. It was so obvious...
I don't think many, including the photographers themselves, would consider the photographs of McCurry or Salgado street photography the way most people define it. They both are working in a documentary context (in Salgado's case with a social agenda which he is very clear about). There is a marked difference between their work and people like Winogrand or Moriyama shooting as Winogrand said "to find out what something will look like photographed".
However for this critique it shouldn't really matter, we have a photograph only.
Some people are going to apply rules and others will respond primarily emotionally. The photographer can take what they want from this. I think that those citing rules feel somehow more authoritative, but the photographers can decide this for themselves. People like William Klein and the previously cited Eggleston, made a mockery of many of these rules, but few of us are as talented or audacious.
Back to the photos...
I don't think many, including the photographers themselves, would consider the photographs of McCurry or Salgado street photography the way most people define it. They both are working in a documentary context (in Salgado's case with a social agenda which he is very clear about). There is a marked difference between their work and people like Winogrand or Moriyama shooting as Winogrand said "to find out what something will look like photographed".
However for this critique it shouldn't really matter, we have a photograph only.
Some people are going to apply rules and others will respond primarily emotionally. The photographer can take what they want from this. I think that those citing rules feel somehow more authoritative, but the photographers can decide this for themselves. People like William Klein and the previously cited Eggleston, made a mockery of many of these rules, but few of us are as talented or audacious.
Back to the photos...
