Roger Hicks
Veteran
As far as I recall, the markings on quite a few ex-Nazi cameras were 'officially' milled out. After the war, ALL cameras were supposed to be handed over to the occupying authorities, but this didn't always happen, and it's the ones where it didn't happen (exchanged for cigarettes, etc.) that still have the markings. This is right at the limits of my memory -- 'something I read somewhere, once' -- but I think I've seen it documented somewhere.
Likewise, I vaguely recall that the Standard SS issue camera was the Contax, not the Leica.
Anyone else's memory in better order?
Cheers,
R.
Likewise, I vaguely recall that the Standard SS issue camera was the Contax, not the Leica.
Anyone else's memory in better order?
Cheers,
R.
goamules
Well-known
Yes, like I said earlier, I read the same thing, the war markings were removed on purpose.
http://www.cameraquest.com/luft.htm
http://www.cameraquest.com/luft.htm
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Garrett,
Sure, but the question is when, how and by whom?
For example, a friend of mine had an SS typewriter. Often, the key had been crudely cut off (it wasn't on his).
Cheers,
R.
Pastor Chris
Well-known
Pastor Chris
Well-known
mugent
Well-known
How so? A lot of German military personnel were drafted, it was either be shot by the enemy, or by your own country. I think the SS were ideologists, but the rest were just an army, young lads being sent to get killed by the other side.
dave lackey
Veteran
Hi, Chris!
I really wouldn't give any camera a second thought as expressed above. If this kind of thinking were taken to it's logical end, we would be creeped out by the last owner of our car...or worse, who slept in the hotel bed we are using tonight and what did they do?...or even how many terrorists, rapists, hard-core criminals are driving down the interstate next to us at any point in time?:angel: I won't even get into a restaurant scenario.
Leica is a reputable company with excellent products. Given the human race, it is probable that I may not like some people who previously owned my IIIF or the M3. Retired nazi owner in the pedigree? Same could be said of my Nikons over the years and those residing in my closet, many owners of those over the years, too. Or my Kodaks that I used to buy second-hand.
The past is dead, the future is in doubt. Let's all go to an RFF meet somewhere, the time is now!
BTW, when are you coming to Atlanta?
I really wouldn't give any camera a second thought as expressed above. If this kind of thinking were taken to it's logical end, we would be creeped out by the last owner of our car...or worse, who slept in the hotel bed we are using tonight and what did they do?...or even how many terrorists, rapists, hard-core criminals are driving down the interstate next to us at any point in time?:angel: I won't even get into a restaurant scenario.
Leica is a reputable company with excellent products. Given the human race, it is probable that I may not like some people who previously owned my IIIF or the M3. Retired nazi owner in the pedigree? Same could be said of my Nikons over the years and those residing in my closet, many owners of those over the years, too.
Or my Kodaks that I used to buy second-hand. The past is dead, the future is in doubt. Let's all go to an RFF meet somewhere, the time is now!
BTW, when are you coming to Atlanta?
furcafe
Veteran
It's a myth that only the SS were ideologically motivated, though they were certainly the most indoctrinated. Plenty of atrocities against civilians & POWs were committed by the regular German army, particularly on the Eastern Front.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
True, but it's equally a myth that all German soldiers were fervent Nazis.
As for atrocities... Well, countless countries have committed 'em, some a good deal more recently than WW2. You don't need Nazis for atrocities.
Cheers,
R.
mugent
Well-known
Indeed, but the Russians were probably a lot worse. American soldiers raped and pillaged in Vietnam, but I wouldn't tar the US Army with that brush.
I Love Film
Well-known
This is all silly revisionism.
It is standard pablum. "Oh, the regular Wehrmacht were just a bunch of harmless, well-meaning fellows who did not support the Nazi cause. They were simply patriots, who did not really want to fight. Of course, none of them knew about the genocide and atrocities, it was all done by only the SS. The regular army spent all their time giving spare rations and chocolate to orphans and were loved by all the conquered people."
And Roger, of course you can paint all other armies with the same brush, but the Nazi atrocities were not your standard, garden variety wartime violence. They committed murder on a whole different order of magnitude. So let's stop the smug nonsense, as babbled by people who are living in a safer world 70 years later.
It is standard pablum. "Oh, the regular Wehrmacht were just a bunch of harmless, well-meaning fellows who did not support the Nazi cause. They were simply patriots, who did not really want to fight. Of course, none of them knew about the genocide and atrocities, it was all done by only the SS. The regular army spent all their time giving spare rations and chocolate to orphans and were loved by all the conquered people."
And Roger, of course you can paint all other armies with the same brush, but the Nazi atrocities were not your standard, garden variety wartime violence. They committed murder on a whole different order of magnitude. So let's stop the smug nonsense, as babbled by people who are living in a safer world 70 years later.
unixrevolution
Well-known
I don't see anything weird about owning a wartime camera from any nation. I'm also a collector of vintage firearms, and just inherited my father's collection. In the collection, there's a WWII-vintage M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, Lee Enfield and a 1917 Eddystone, all allied guns.
There's also a Nazi-Marked Walther P38, a Nazi-marked K98 Mauser and an Imperial Japanese Arisaka rifle.
These objects are not inherently evil, because no object is inherently evil. But having them, and using them (to punch holes in paper, in my case) connects us with history, so that we may learn from it.
I wouldn't hesitate to keep any camera, no matter its origin, if I can do good with it now, and if its past can teach me something.
There's also a Nazi-Marked Walther P38, a Nazi-marked K98 Mauser and an Imperial Japanese Arisaka rifle.
These objects are not inherently evil, because no object is inherently evil. But having them, and using them (to punch holes in paper, in my case) connects us with history, so that we may learn from it.
I wouldn't hesitate to keep any camera, no matter its origin, if I can do good with it now, and if its past can teach me something.
I Love Film
Well-known
Let's suppose there was a person who collected piano wire which was used to strangle mothers with their babies to death in concentration camps.
Would this be considered a hobby which was of mere "historical interest", to "connect you with history"? Or would this reveal something about the personality of the collector?
After all, there is nothing evil about piano wire. It is just strands of metal.
.
Would this be considered a hobby which was of mere "historical interest", to "connect you with history"? Or would this reveal something about the personality of the collector?
After all, there is nothing evil about piano wire. It is just strands of metal.
.
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Paul Luscher
Well-known
Agree with the above , re "it's only a camera." Besides it was a Luftwaffe camera. It mighta been a little different if it was an S.S. camera.
goamules
Well-known
Lighten up Francis.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
I think perhaps you are setting up straw men here. No, let's be accurate, 'straw man' is too generous.
The simple point is that a massacre is a massacre, regardless of who does it. It's carried out by young men who are either very scared or high on adrenaline or both.To pretend that German soldiers were in some way uniquely evil, or carried out worse individual massacres, is drivel. Besides, how do you quantify massacres? In what way is it 'better' to kill 'only' 400-500 people (My Lai) instead of 642 (Oradour s/Glane, http://www.oradour.info/), not far from where I live?
Were there more Nazi massacres than Soviet? Probably. But I don't know. Nor, I suspect, do you. What about the scale of those massacres? Again, I suspect neither of us knows. Remember Katyn? That was 22,000 Poles. And they weren't killed by the Nazis. There were plenty of other massacres of Poles, too. Last time I was in Poland I was shown a field that was once a village...
You're the revisionist. You want to hang all evil on the Nazis, ignoring the evil done by others. Why? No-one denies the evil of the Nazi regime (well, no-one sane, anyway). Why do you pretend they do? And why do you pretend that ALL Germans were evil Nazis? Many were. Many weren't. How many Germans have you ever actually met? And, for that matter, how many ex-Nazi party members?
Cheers,
R.
I Love Film
Well-known
By the way, I see nothing wrong with owning cameras or anything else with "political engravings" or military engravings. (I have a couple of Nazi-engraved binoculars)
But I also don't buy the argument that people who specialize in collecting this stuff are doing it completely out of innocent "historical interest".
A person with 50 Nazi-engraved cameras is also likely to have a collection of Hitler Youth daggers, German helmets or Lugers. Let's not pretend to be all innocent and harmless.
But I also don't buy the argument that people who specialize in collecting this stuff are doing it completely out of innocent "historical interest".
A person with 50 Nazi-engraved cameras is also likely to have a collection of Hitler Youth daggers, German helmets or Lugers. Let's not pretend to be all innocent and harmless.
Pastor Chris
Well-known
What I am getting form all of the responses in this thread is that many people create a tangible connection to an object and its history. For some, this connection is either not and issue, or not related to the object itself; this history and the object are separate. For others, the history is connected to the object in a very real way, wether it is regarded as rational or not is not the point.
Some people are claustrophobic and others enjoy tight places and one cannot understand the other, only accept the difference. I think this is a valid analogy in this case.
For some the history of an object, as long as they have reason to believe the provenance, is enough to keep them away from that object and even to have very violent and angry feelings toward it for the history that it represents.
I have really enjoyed hearing from those who have some connection to the atrocities committed around a particular item who find some healing or redemption in the use of it for good, rather than making it some sort of morbid icon of a past age.
A very interesting discussion continues. . .
I Love Film
Well-known
No, I do not want to "hang all evil" on the Nazis.
All wars will produce atrocities, and all people will commit atrocities given the right circumstances. You are completely correct about My Lai and Katyn forest, as per your examples.
But you are attempting a modern, subtle form of revisionism and/or attempting trying to nullify an extreme evil by trying to paint all wartime mass murders with a broad brush. Very sophisticated modern European sublimated anti-Semitism, in my opinion.
The German Nazis used modern technology to construct an entire State Sanctioned industrial apparatus specifically to murder an entire population. Nothing subtle about it. Nothing random. The German Army was a purpose-built organization in support of that cause. Murder of non-combatants was deliberate.
I don't want to play "who knows more Nazis" with you. Suffice to say, I am extremely familiar, even intimate, with many, many more than you could imagine. It has been an area of research in my past career.
(of course, when you defend Tibet and vilify the Chinese, your "logic" is utterly reversed)
All wars will produce atrocities, and all people will commit atrocities given the right circumstances. You are completely correct about My Lai and Katyn forest, as per your examples.
But you are attempting a modern, subtle form of revisionism and/or attempting trying to nullify an extreme evil by trying to paint all wartime mass murders with a broad brush. Very sophisticated modern European sublimated anti-Semitism, in my opinion.
The German Nazis used modern technology to construct an entire State Sanctioned industrial apparatus specifically to murder an entire population. Nothing subtle about it. Nothing random. The German Army was a purpose-built organization in support of that cause. Murder of non-combatants was deliberate.
I don't want to play "who knows more Nazis" with you. Suffice to say, I am extremely familiar, even intimate, with many, many more than you could imagine. It has been an area of research in my past career.
(of course, when you defend Tibet and vilify the Chinese, your "logic" is utterly reversed)
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Quite. Years ago, an antique dealer (knowing my interest in magical matters) handed me an important magical implement that had belonged to Aleister Crowley, self-proclaimed 'wickedest man in the world'. He said that the last person he'd handed it to had felt the 'evil vibes'. We both laughed. The 'evil vibes' belonged to Crowley, not to the implement.
The French have a saying: "Life is like a Spanish inn: you only get from it what you bring to it." as far as I am concerned, some people tend to bring some pretty strange things. But as you say, it's probably as much a matter of how your mind works, as a matter of choice.
Cheers,
R.
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