End of 35 mm Cameras

[phototone]

There is no demise of film photography. It is just shifting to a niche, rather than a universal medium.

 

[Gabriel M.A.]

Rock and Roll, the Macintosh, B&W photography, Medium Format, Large Format, Painting, married couples, and now 35mm film...their demise will be in the news for decades to come.

 

[Silva Lining]

Dixons haven't been photographic dealers for years, they are camera "sellers" a very different thing. The last time I bought anything from them must have been twenty years ago. I was looking for a 49mm Orange filter, the salesman looked blank for a moment, then came back with a Paterson Water filter, saying"you should be able to filter orange through that" I left and have never returned. No great loss I think!!!!! 🙄

Ha! I must say that it is unusual to find a Dixon's salesman with even that amount of product knowledge!

Lord Lichfield is a well known paid up (and paid) member of the Olympus Fan club. He has 'famously' converted to digital and flount's his E1 at every opportunity. And fair play to him, I have it on good authority that the Olympus E-1 is a fabulous camera, and if it makes him happy then thats just smashing.

Makes no difference to me though!. I think that, over the next decade, Film cameras and more importantly film stock will become more of a specialised art product. This will inevitably mean some of our favourite films disappearing (as some already have) especially those produced by the large companies.

Pesonally, I think Film production will continue in the Czech Republic, Russia and China, and other places by companies like Ilford, Foma, and Efke/Adox etc that will be aimed at the specialist market in Europe/Us as well as the still considerable film markets in India/China/ Far East.

In the final analysis though, it will depend whether users like us conitnue to buy it!

 

[phototone]

There are many "obsolete" technologies that are quite healthy today, regardless of the fact that they have been scaled back in quantity manufactured.

Vacuum tubes for audio, for example. Still the preferred method of amplification for Guitarists, and many audiofiles, with new equipment regularly designed and marketed. Tubes are manufactured in Russia, Chec (sp) Republic, Slovakia, China, USA, and perhaps other sites.

Brooms. While vacuum cleaners have been shown to be more efective in sucking up dirt, the broom lingers on.

Bicycles....even though no way has been yet designed to air-condition them.

Single-edged razor blades....just the thing for scraping paint.

Coffee Percolators....no good reason, they just are. I use one myself. I will not completely give into the drip revolution.

Dish Pan....even though the dishwasher is more fun. Also good for warming darkroom chemistry bottles in.

Pot Bellied Stove.....won't these always be manufactured?

Radio....what a concept...sound without pictures.

Wax

 

[canonetc]

While I don't live in jolly old England but would love to visit, I occasionally see "camera" stores (like one in Sedona, Arizona) that focus 80% of their store product on digital. I think this trend as nothing more than cheap and fearful Kodak capitalism. "Sell what sells". The sky won't fall for awhile; in the future we will be able to find someone in Borneo with a Canon A-1 hanging from his neck, shooting in black-and-white.

And phototone, great listing of obsolete items that WORK without digital needs! Too cool.
From a time when there was more moral responsibility by business to the PUBLIC in making quality products that would last, and not made simply to go obsolete or break in x-years so you have to buy another. That, I feel, is the great crime behind the digital industry. Making things over time for profit potentials, instead of making available NOW a full-frame 12MP camera for under $1000.00. Anyway, my ranting has ended, as it's a lovely day!

Chris

 

[Bertram2]

Pesonally, I think Film production will continue in the Czech Republic, Russia and China, and other places by companies like Ilford, Foma, and Efke/Adox etc that will be aimed at the specialist market in Europe/Us as well as the still considerable film markets in India/China/ Far East.

In the final analysis though, it will depend whether users like us conitnue to buy it!

I am also absolutely sure that film will survive, but in a western and Japanese niche. Maybe it will be produced in the east, but it has turned out already that China , India or far east are NO film markets.
The folks there want the absolutely latest thing and this is digital, no "old" and obsolete technologies. Kodak has learned this already, film sales does not work as expected in China as they report.

I think this is what we had to expect, the third world consumer does not want to wear the worn out shoes of the west. When the CD once came the far east did not keep the turntable market up, the western afficionados did that.

WE are the niche ! So buy film friends!! Buy lot's of it . And and keep on shooting like mad !! Or you can put all your analog babies on the shelf soon !! 😀 😀 😀

Emulsionly ,
Bertram

 

[bmattock]

There are many "obsolete" technologies that are quite healthy today, regardless of the fact that they have been scaled back in quantity manufactured.

I hate to keep banging this gong, but hey, I gotta do something. Film manufacture is fundamentally different than the niche technologies you mention.

Vacuum tubes for audio, for example. Still the preferred method of amplification for Guitarists, and many audiofiles, with new equipment regularly designed and marketed. Tubes are manufactured in Russia, Chec (sp) Republic, Slovakia, China, USA, and perhaps other sites.

Name one NEW manufacturing plant that has been built to manufacture vacuum tubes. There are a few 'boutique' plants that operate on obsolete / retired / recycled tube making equipment, and as long as it is economical for them to continue making them and there is a market for them, I imagine that they will.

But you won't be seeing GE tooling up to make tubes again any time soon.

Brooms. While vacuum cleaners have been shown to be more efective in sucking up dirt, the broom lingers on.

Not too hard to make a broom - by hand, if labor is cheap enough.

Bicycles....even though no way has been yet designed to air-condition them.

Again, low-or-no tech for consumer goods, high-end enough to justify exotic manufacturing techniques (and prices) for racers, off-roaders, etc. Would you buy boutique 'racing quality Tri-X' for $2,000 per roll? Didn't think so.

Single-edged razor blades....just the thing for scraping paint.

Easy to manufacture.

Coffee Percolators....no good reason, they just are. I use one myself. I will not completely give into the drip revolution.

Hot plate with a tube stuck on it.

Dish Pan....even though the dishwasher is more fun. Also good for warming darkroom chemistry bottles in.

Probably the simplest shape to press out of plastic that there is.

Pot Bellied Stove.....won't these always be manufactured?

And why not? If there is a demand, lost-wax investment casting of cast iron is pretty easy to do in any primitive manufacturing plant - it is shipping that eats up the money, as the things weigh so much.

Film is (sadly) not like these. It is a plastic transparent base coated on both sides with various layers of fairly exotic chemicals - to a uniform density and thickness. The manufacturing process requires great precision and expensive slitting and coating equipment - the investment is huge. Kodak recently spent hundreds of millions upgrading their B&W manufacturing plants (looking forward, well-done Kodak), and nearly as much investing in the Chinese 'Lucky Film Company' so they could modernize their plants in China. That was the first major investment in manufacturing infrastructure that the entire industry had seen in decades - and it will be the last ever seen.

And even assuming that one could knock together a plant to make B&W film on a 'boutique' basis, the environmental problems would eat their lunch for them. These chemicals are bad news. Most plants today exist only because of grandfather clauses - if they had to adhere to modern standards on emissions and leakage into groundwater, etc - they'd go under. I'm amazed that Kodak managed to get away with building a new plant.

So, I do predict that the existing plants will go through many owners, as bigger companies sell off and close the plants, and smaller companies willing to work on smaller margins and operate more efficiently come in and produce on ever smaller scales. Due to lack of environmental controls, the plants in Eastern Europe and China will probably be the last to close.

But when they close, that's the end of it. Sorry. I love film too.

Radio....what a concept...sound without pictures.
Wax

The FCC in the US has mandated that analog AM & FM go off the air in a couple years' time. All digital FM broadcasts (IBOC), old receivers will get nothing but static.

IBOC was originally going to be forced down our throats, as it has been in Europe. However, the FCC has been hammered upon, they are going to phase in IBOC with 'hybrid' broadcasts for now.

Analog radio is still doomed, it has just bought some time.

Wither your tube oldy-timey radio now?

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[phototone]

I hate to keep banging this gong, but hey, I gotta do something. Film manufacture is fundamentally different than the niche technologies you mention.



Name one NEW manufacturing plant that has been built to manufacture vacuum tubes. There are a few 'boutique' plants that operate on obsolete / retired / recycled tube making equipment, and as long as it is economical for them to continue making them and there is a market for them, I imagine that they will.

But you won't be seeing GE tooling up to make tubes again any time soon.



Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

Well, I believe that there have been a couple of "NEW" ventures in tube manufacturing in the last few years. Western Electric re-opened a plant to manufacture brand new 300D tubes for the audiofile market. Vaic Vacuum Tubes in Eastern Europe is a relatively new manufacturing venture. True these are "botique" factories. New tubes have been introduced by several of the existing factories to fill a market for higher quality audio tubes. There is more choice available now than there was 10 years ago in brand new tubes.

While we may see film dwindle in quantity, and the manufacture may eventually only be in Eastern Europe and the Far East, it will still be made in the forseeable future. There are literally zillions of feet of film produced yearly for motion picture release prints, and this is not going away quickly, no matter what people say about digital theatrical projection. If a plant can make movie film, it can, with little difference make camera film. Same coating lines. 35mm film is the univeral release format for movies, and all the theatres in the 3rd world countries are not going to convert to digital. No way. Can't afford it. So, our availability of stuff to put in our cameras may not be totally dependent on consumer film sales for still cameras.

 

[VinceC]

<<So, our availability of stuff to put in our cameras may not be totally dependent on consumer film sales for still cameras.>>

And so we go full circle. The earliest Leica "miniature" cameras were designed to be used with motion-picture film, opening up a new niche market.

 

[Kevin]

I met another frustrated digital user last weekend. He lost about 18 months worth of pictures because he did not take the necessary backup steps. He concluded by saying he was switching back to a film camera.

Let's face it. Film is much better for most people because they are lazy when it comes to saving their digital files. Sooner or later, every digital user loses images, except Socke, who would have me build pyramids in Germany.

Most consumers do not realize this. They think they are saving time and money by going digital. But they are not factoring in all parts of the photographic workflow, and that is sad for them.

Film will make a huge comeback because of this. Just wait and see.

 

[RObert Budding]

Film will be manufactured for a long time. Sorry, but making film is not that complicated. We're not talking about the manufacture of integrated circuits here!

Huge investnments? Hardly. And it should be easy for someone to buy a plant or two on the cheap when Kodak exits the market.

Film is a mature product, but there is still room for improvement and investment - I'd pay a premium for a true 3200 speed film that has really fine grain. Of course, the amount anyone will invest will depend on the size of the market. Future investments will be smaller, and I may never see a fine-grained 3200 speed film. But I can live with that because the current state of the art is pretty amazing!

Robert

 

[DerekF]

I met another frustrated digital user last weekend. He lost about 18 months worth of pictures because he did not take the necessary backup steps. He concluded by saying he was switching back to a film camera.

Let's face it. Film is much better for most people because they are lazy when it comes to saving their digital files. Sooner or later, every digital user loses images, except Socke, who would have me build pyramids in Germany.

Most consumers do not realize this. They think they are saving time and money by going digital. But they are not factoring in all parts of the photographic workflow, and that is sad for them.

Film will make a huge comeback because of this. Just wait and see.

Kevin,

Good points, and I've also often considered the "backup angle" as a way for film to make a future revival, but I think it's only a matter of time before some entrepreneur (or large megacorp) builds a backup solution (maybe distributed over the Internet) that is as easy as simply inserting your CF card into a slot reader to create reliable backups. After all, for years, printer makers have been marketing printers that let you directly print from your digital cameras. The CDs and hard drives being made today will eventually begin to fail (maybe at around the same time in the future?), causing many unsuspecting consumers to lose their digital archives. When that happens, consumers won't ditch their digital investments, but will instead demand better (read: easier) backup solutions.

And if someone tries to patent such a solution in 5 or 10 years, remember, you read it here first. :angel:

 

[parks5920]

then why do film manufactures keeping making new, better film?

 

[ruben]

Dixons the UKs Biggest Photography Retailer and Processor ends sales of 35 mm Cameras.

Will this Quicken the demise of 35 mm Photography , and the thing that worries
me most, will it become difficult to get 35 mm film Processed ?

Hi Cameramanic !

Once upon a time there was a Brittish Empire, at the center of world politics, world culture, world economics, world industrial production, etc. Since many decades ago it vanished, its place taken by the USA. Therefore I cannot understand your logics, and it seems that even your fellow Brittish here don't agree Dixons comes first within the island.

Anyway if you hear that Kodak or Ilford are going to close their film lines, by any means keep us posted.

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[phototone]

The big question, or I guess it would be an observation is...does the average consumer, snapshot soccer mom type photogapher even consider the archiving of the files, or the negatives. I think that there are many casual snap-shooters that consider the "PRINT"
to be the file, and erase their cards after the prints are made. Then when they want
more prints, they just do that on the Kodak Do-It-Yourself Scanning Kiosk at Wal-Mart.

Of course these prints are either Fuji Frontier prints (RA-4), or Kodak Kiosk prints (dye-sub)
and have a limited life span, certainly far less than pigment based ink-jet, or darkroom
silver based b/w prints.

All in all, the average "snap-shooter" and this type of customer is what drives the market,
doesn't give a flip about long term storage of digital files, or film negatives. Doesn't even
know why they should care about it. After all they got the prints.

 

[Kevin]

All in all, the average "snap-shooter" and this type of customer is what drives the market,
doesn't give a flip about long term storage of digital files, or film negatives. Doesn't even
know why they should care about it. After all they got the prints.

True, I have also heard of people who keep the photolab prints and throw out the negatives. Sad.

Our negatives become historical documents one day, and they should not be discarded. Ever.

Imagine flickr full of images from Roman times. Family snapshots, picnics, daily stuff posed and unposed. Would be special, wouldn't it?

 

[Kevin]

Once upon a time there was a Brittish Empire, at the center of world politics, world culture, world economics, world industrial production, etc. Since many decades ago it vanished, its place taken by the USA.

I was under the impression that the British Empire still rules the USA (and slowly most of the rest of the world). Please correct me if I have been fooled.

 

[parks5920]

Nah, they still do, only it's more discreet. 😀

 

[jaapv]

I was under the impression that the British Empire still rules the USA (and slowly most of the rest of the world). Please correct me if I have been fooled.

Hah!! In reality Bill Gates rules!

 

[airds]

Heavens! Who buys anything in Jessops, never mind Dixons .......