daveleo
what?
Gary,
I'm not going to second guess what Fuji's motive are, I actually don't care
, but new and free FW improvements (bug fixes or "upgrades") are welcome.
Should they have perfected their designs before hitting the streets with them ? No - why? (Who does, actually?) Sell it now, boost market share, get cash flowing in, upgrade it for free later on and get hugs and kisses from your cutomers. We did the same with new design machinery. That's how the world works. Free FW fixes and upgrades? . . . . what's not to love?
If all my NIkon SLR lenses vanished , I'd buy into a Fujifilm X-system . . . I am that impressed with the X100 and Fuji's attitude.
I'm not going to second guess what Fuji's motive are, I actually don't care
, but new and free FW improvements (bug fixes or "upgrades") are welcome. Should they have perfected their designs before hitting the streets with them ? No - why? (Who does, actually?) Sell it now, boost market share, get cash flowing in, upgrade it for free later on and get hugs and kisses from your cutomers. We did the same with new design machinery. That's how the world works. Free FW fixes and upgrades? . . . . what's not to love?
If all my NIkon SLR lenses vanished
, I'd buy into a Fujifilm X-system . . . I am that impressed with the X100 and Fuji's attitude.Frontman
Well-known
The thing about digital cameras is that though the hardware can't evolve, software can. You can argue that Fuji should have required less "fixes" when their cameras were released, but if you compare the issues Fuji has had to those which Leica has had, Fuji has done a much better job. It is nice that Fuji has engineered a lot of room for improvement and modification into the X cameras.
Fuji has been able to make a very sophisticated product at a quite reasonable price, for what is certainly not the main market. Not only that, but their release schedule has been closely followed, and production has been adequate to meet demand. Has Leica done as well in these regards?
As for Canikon, enough has already been said about them.
gavinlg
Veteran
The so called fixes were fixed long ago. Nearly all the new features added by recent firmware updates are indeed added features. When the x-pro1 came on the market focus peaking didn't exist or barely existed in consumer cameras. They added the feature later on to keep up with the market. They could have gone olympus style and released a new body every time instead of fw updates. Honestly anyone who views continual upgrades as a bad thing is just pure carmudgeon.
willie_901
Veteran
Apparently one person's fix is another person's improvement.
Name another camera company that changes the function of an existing product based on specific customer feedback.
Granted people are still whinning about not having color options for focus peaking, how AF/AE lock functions and other issues. But does anyone actually believe adding focus peaking is fixing something that is broken? I was able to focus and check focus manually long before focus peaking was released. I actually made well focused photographs too. Focus peaking is helpful in some situations. But it did not fix something that was broken.
The same is true for the improved OVF frame lines. Fuji started out with generous frame lines. I suspect they figured cropping unwanted parts of the frame out was better than being disappointed about things being irreversibly cut off in the frame. Many customers (especially those transitioning from DSLRs and EVF-only cameras) complained. So Fuji now uses less generous frame lines. Is this fixing something that was broken? Or is it changing the design because Fuji misjudged the frustration people would experience from cropping a too generous frame? I guess being flexible and responsive to customer input is now redefines as fixing broken cameras.
Name another camera company that changes the function of an existing product based on specific customer feedback.
Granted people are still whinning about not having color options for focus peaking, how AF/AE lock functions and other issues. But does anyone actually believe adding focus peaking is fixing something that is broken? I was able to focus and check focus manually long before focus peaking was released. I actually made well focused photographs too. Focus peaking is helpful in some situations. But it did not fix something that was broken.
The same is true for the improved OVF frame lines. Fuji started out with generous frame lines. I suspect they figured cropping unwanted parts of the frame out was better than being disappointed about things being irreversibly cut off in the frame. Many customers (especially those transitioning from DSLRs and EVF-only cameras) complained. So Fuji now uses less generous frame lines. Is this fixing something that was broken? Or is it changing the design because Fuji misjudged the frustration people would experience from cropping a too generous frame? I guess being flexible and responsive to customer input is now redefines as fixing broken cameras.
rivercityrocker
Well-known
Whining? Just making a personal observation.
I suppose your suggestion that I make a camera was supposed to be in some way derogatory, but it's just a ludicrous statement. I'm not in the camera making business. Of course I wouldn't be able to do that.
It's so funny how much in denial you Fuji people are and how angry you get when someone suggests that Fuji maybe jumped the gun on releasing the camera. Which bears up to scrutiny when you compare the "features" they are adding that could have been implemented easily from the get go.
It's not like focus peaking wasn't invented when the first X camera was released and look how long it took them to add it. And they STILL haven't gotten it right. You'll have to wait for ANOTHER update to get it where you can change colors to make it actually usable.
Just to point out, I am a two-time former Fuji XPro1 owner. I'm speaking from experience. And I'm definitely not whining. It's more like watching with amusement.
Jamie Pillers
Skeptic
Nope… you're whining. DEFINITELY whining. I know whining when I see it. Let's take a vote… he's whining, right?
rivercityrocker
Well-known
Nope… you're whining. DEFINITELY whining. I know whining when I see it. Let's take a vote… he's whining, right?
I'd have to have some sort actual concern about the camera in order to whine about it. Since I ditched it I don't care if they come out with 100 firmware updates tomorrow or they never come out with one again.
That doesn't mean I can't laugh at the overzealousness with which Fuji owners go to defend their cameras.
So I vote "Nay" on the whining.
Jamie Pillers
Skeptic
I'd have to have some sort actual concern about the camera in order to whine about it. Since I ditched it I don't care if they come out with 100 firmware updates tomorrow or they never come out with one again.
That doesn't mean I can't laugh at the overzealousness with which Fuji owners go to defend their cameras.
So I vote "Nay" on the whining.
Do you mean the kind of overzealousness that I just read in the Nikon Df thread… posted by… ummm…. you? Maybe overzealous Nikon guys should stick to that thread and us overzealous Fuji guys can play around over here. Whaddya say?
rivercityrocker
Well-known
Was I angrily defending the Df? Nope. I was simply stating my personal reasons for why I bought it. I also pointed out some flaws as well. Something you seem to have missed.
Overzealous? Not in the least. I can admit to the shortcomings of any camera system. I don't view my cameras as being special and I don't link my self worth to a corporation.
Overzealous? Not in the least. I can admit to the shortcomings of any camera system. I don't view my cameras as being special and I don't link my self worth to a corporation.
Jamie Pillers
Skeptic
Didn't miss a thing.
Snowbuzz
Well-known
The EX-1 certainly isn't my favorite camera but kudos to Fuji for being responsive to the legitimate concerns of customers. And yes, that makes me root for them. Compare their attitude towards customers with that of Nikon and the D600 debacle, for instance. It's like ethics and communication in medicine: patients are more likely to forgive an oversight if one admits to it, apologises sincerely, and then proceeds to put things in place to make it right.
back alley
IMAGES
my favourite camera was the rd1.
but i really like the xe-1 too.
maybe it's the number 1 in the names?
but i really like the xe-1 too.
maybe it's the number 1 in the names?
Wiyum
Established
I've never felt that the cameras were rushed to market with inferior testing. I'm sure I'm forgetting some of the things early firmware fixed, but here are some things to consider...
1. Reviews of these cameras upon release complained about this or that, but I never read a single review that accused the cameras of being half-baked or under-tested.
2. The thing closest to a "fix" would be AF performance. X100 and XPro1 AF at launch was roughly on par with the Panasonic G1 or Olympus EP1 when they launched. Which made it a couple years outdated when Fuji released them, but it was, like those cameras, a first stab at large-sensor CDAF. Fuji got better at it, and gave that away to their customers (Olympus users didn't get better CDAF unless they bought an EPL1, IIRC). Fuji has improved AF two or three times since, which is unheard of.
3. Most other additions in firmware amount to customers saying "this should work this way instead of that way" and Fuji making it happen, right up to this week's implementation of new auto ISO parameters. Almost without exception, these are features or reworkings that others would have just put in a new body.
Most of the features I just added to my X-E1 are features that debuted in the X-E2, and a couple of those were on my "reasons to upgrade to X-E2" list. Fuji's generosity in this May have, short term, cost them my upgrade. But it makes it even more likely that I'll stick with Fuji.
Every camera has flaws you wish weren't there, or does things in a way that we find suboptimal. With other makers, you just deal and adjust. With Fuji, you often get the improvements you want, without buying a newer camera. How people try to spin this as a negative is beyond me, and I suspect it comes mostly from people with limited experience with the cameras.
1. Reviews of these cameras upon release complained about this or that, but I never read a single review that accused the cameras of being half-baked or under-tested.
2. The thing closest to a "fix" would be AF performance. X100 and XPro1 AF at launch was roughly on par with the Panasonic G1 or Olympus EP1 when they launched. Which made it a couple years outdated when Fuji released them, but it was, like those cameras, a first stab at large-sensor CDAF. Fuji got better at it, and gave that away to their customers (Olympus users didn't get better CDAF unless they bought an EPL1, IIRC). Fuji has improved AF two or three times since, which is unheard of.
3. Most other additions in firmware amount to customers saying "this should work this way instead of that way" and Fuji making it happen, right up to this week's implementation of new auto ISO parameters. Almost without exception, these are features or reworkings that others would have just put in a new body.
Most of the features I just added to my X-E1 are features that debuted in the X-E2, and a couple of those were on my "reasons to upgrade to X-E2" list. Fuji's generosity in this May have, short term, cost them my upgrade. But it makes it even more likely that I'll stick with Fuji.
Every camera has flaws you wish weren't there, or does things in a way that we find suboptimal. With other makers, you just deal and adjust. With Fuji, you often get the improvements you want, without buying a newer camera. How people try to spin this as a negative is beyond me, and I suspect it comes mostly from people with limited experience with the cameras.
jarski
Veteran
never read on these boards that any of Fuji early firmware versions contained so severe bugs that prevented using some features. so don't think they are using their customers as beta-testers a la Microsoft, or rushing products to market too early.
IMO its combination of getting good publicity and building customer satisfaction the way camera companies usually haven't done so much.
IMO its combination of getting good publicity and building customer satisfaction the way camera companies usually haven't done so much.
nongfuspring
Well-known
I think it is far more damaging to a company to release a camera with obvious firmware errors and/or without competitive features than to not have a culture of regular updates. In other words I think things like the having faster AF from the beginning is better for brand awareness than the consumer knowledge that they "might fix it in the future".
For that reason I don't think Fuji's updates are a marketing ploy. The very staggered release of new features does seem strategic though.
For that reason I don't think Fuji's updates are a marketing ploy. The very staggered release of new features does seem strategic though.
Yes, that is the key. Those of us that don't care for DSLRs are willing to accept compromises. I was happy with the Fujis when released and they just keep getting better without me having to spend extra cash. rivercityrocker has a point, but we here at RFF are a strange bunch when it comes to accepting compromises.
GaryLH
Veteran
U maybe right about the af type issue.. But I think it may have been more of a surprise even to them.. By this I mean.. The following.
- u got a secret project going w/ your x100 and most likely the xp1 is not to far behind - sunk r&d budget
- your target group of photographers is actually smaller then what u ended up selling to
-- thus the independent outside beta testers u have signed up are actually quite happy w/ the performance (or maybe not which is where your comment is valid)
-- one of the comments from one of their product managers about a year after the x100 release makes me think their target group was pretty small..
--> the x100 sales was well beyond their expectations.
-- where your comment is most valid is if they knew they had an issue even w/ the target group but decided to announce because of pressure from above or knowledge and fear of the project leaking out to competitors
One of the things people do not seem to realize is that Nikon, Canon and to some extent Sony (via Minolta/Konica buy), not only have very experienced employees that know dslr fw and hw, but they have had how many generations of their dslr product to get it right.. The same w/ m43.. The first gen Olympus was slower then the Panasonic GF1, if I remember correctly. My point is that these are all mature products w/ r&d teams that know through experience. If u point to the Fuji s1.. I am not sure that is a good analogy since the camera body came from Nikon and the digital was Fuji.
However since the S family (s1-s5), they have done nothing but p&s until the x100. As an embedded sw engineer, I have really always wondered how much of the old fw team they retained through the years..
For me the initial af speed was not an issue. Having faster is nice. That does not mean I don't recognize what the key problems were at release.. To me the x100 and the xp1,
-- af speed slower than norm
-- exposure compensation button too easy to change - still needs a lock button to me
-- getting adobe on board early w/ the raw support (this one is also a sign of maybe small target group or their years doing p&s, they never realized the affect of not having adobe support meant to a bigger target group)
Anyway just some thoughts, who knows what really happened behind the scenes..
Gary
f16sunshine
Moderator
I agree with you on this post. Now what do you suppose that strategy is?
Maybe Gary has it right. Fuji has taken what could have been a shortcoming via need for software upgrades and... turned it into a slowly trickling tit that owners can not pull away from.
I'm certainly one of those.
The x100 is brilliant in it's current config. The Xp1 is getting really close and now can only be limited by it's Hardware (evf resolution/refresh rate and lack of the PD pixels for AF).
Any thoughts of leaving the system are outweighed by the IQ it delivers more than the tit theory… but! I do look forward to more improvements (and new lenses) !
Color FP at the very top of that list!
The bottom line is that some cameras come out with flaws and firmware is never released. Which digital camera has been perfect right from day 1?
kbg32
neo-romanticist
I like the fact that a camera can be updated and "fixed" via firmware. At least Fuji listens and is doing something towards giving their buyers a camera that they want.