I need feedback from everyone. (Classifieds)

Jorge,

If you consistently get complaints (from different buyers, not just one incident or one buyer) regarding a particular seller's inability to grade properly, or to respond as a honorable seller ... ban him/her.

Feedback is very effective for POSITIVE experiences. But I suspect a lot of BAD experiences go unreported publicly. Therefore you are in an unique position to receive particularly egregious complaints. And thus, in a unique position to really hear the truth on these matters.

I trust you and the moderators to know a particularly bad apple when you see one.
 
Pherdinand said:
how about only members registered since xxx days being allowed to sell anything.
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I don't think that is necessary, anybody can see the join date and number of posts in the profile and decide accordingly. Maybe Jorge can make it positive and award a plus rating to those that have completed a specified number of transactions with good feedback.
 
IMO, this is a forum where friends buy, sell and trade. If you need the security features of eBay you should buy and sell on eBay.

R.J.
 
Jamie123 said:
I wouldn't let members give bad feedback on their own since this could possibly get quite excessive and could result in open disputes on the forum.

just my 2 cents
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Jamie raises another good point, bad/negative feedback left for someone --- should these comments turn out to be inaccurate, malicious or mean-spirited --- is grounds for libel. And since RFF is the host of these potentially libelous printed comments ... well, I'm sure you can finish the rest of this sentence yourself ...
 
Jorge Torralba said:
Please provide your feedback on this matter since one day you may also be a victim of a misleading ad.

Thanks,
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Actually Jorge i was the victim of the above from a member here on RFF and having to send the said camera off for a repair - i'm certainly not going to be purchasing privately again without a lot more clarification from the seller.
Photos and emails descriptions can be misleading and taking this into account I asked for a 50% split of the repair costs but this was rejected. The description was way off the mark depsite careful questions asked before agreeing to purchase - Lets just say that i'll bypass the classified section now - which is sad because i've bought 50% of my camera equipment from personal sellers and never had a problem.
😡
 
RJBender said:
IMO, this is a forum where friends buy, sell and trade. If you need the security features of eBay you should buy and sell on eBay.

R.J.
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True, in most cases. But we all know some come here simply to sell stuff and make money.
 
Simon Larby said:
Actually Jorge i was the victim of the above from a member here on RFF and having to send the said camera off for a repair - i'm certainly not going to be purchasing privately again without a lot more clarification from the seller.
Photos and emails descriptions can be misleading and taking this into account I asked for a 50% split of the repair costs but this was rejected. The description was way off the mark depsite careful questions asked before agreeing to purchase - Lets just say that i'll bypass the classified section now - which is sad because i've bought 50% of my camera equipment from personal sellers and never had a problem.
😡
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Sorry to hear of your experience.

I am just curious Simon, and please don't feel like I'm advocating one action or another .... You are perfectly in your right to either leave or not leave feedback.

But, have you left negative feedback for this seller?
 
Too angry. Beside the email/PM repsonse was very poor and since my last communiction there has been no repsonse. I'll get the camera repaired and move on but felt it right to post in this thread as it is relavant. I see no point in creating a name and shame. I know what to look for when buying my kit and expect cameras of a certain age to have wearr and tear i do not expect misleading sales info. RFF felt a good place to be. It is but i'm very disappoinented with what has happened. Also the ad was placed in the old section of classified but the transaction took place in the last 14 days. So where or how would i leave feedback for such an ad?
I don't expect buying from RFF to give me any guarantess because it's the person not the forum you deal with and suppose everybody else had a good transaction prior to me buying i would still have been guided by their feedback.
 
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pesphoto said:
True, in most cases. But we all know some come here simply to sell stuff and make money.
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Some meaningful statistics to view together would be:

The date when that person joined RFF.
Their average daily post count and total number of posts.
The number of items they listed in the new classifieds to date.
The number of items sold to date.
The value of all items sold by that seller to date.

If you look at the bottom of this page http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost-classifieds/
you can see that 134 items were sold to date with a total value of $28,020.

R.J.
 
Jorge,

Here is my $0.02 (usd) with a lot of experience moderating online gear forums -- just put up a disclaimer that RFF is not in any way liable for deals gone wrong in the classifieds, and stop charging for them as well. You get donations, and you have banner ads.

If the above isn't self sustaining or profitable to your desire, either only allow supporters/donators to post in the emporium, but still take no responsibility of deals gone awry. You're just going to have perpetual problems as you grow. You could request a percentage of deals gone well (2%-5%), but charging to place ads can imply liability on your part.

Besides, there are quite a few other areas of the site that need work, e.g. email alerts...
 
Simon Larby said:
Too angry. Beside the email/PM repsonse was very poor and since my last communiction there has been no repsonse. I'll get the camera repaired and move on but felt it right to post in this thread as it is relavant. I see no point in creating a name and shame. I know what to look for when buying my kit and expect cameras of a certain age to have wearr and tear i do not expect misleading sales info. RFF felt a good place to be. It is but i'm very disappoinented with what has happened. Also the ad was placed in the old section of classified but the transaction took place in the last 14 days. So where or how would i leave feedback for such an ad?
I don't expect buying from RFF to give me any guarantess because it's the person not the forum you deal with and suppose everybody else had a good transaction prior to me buying i would still have been guided by their feedback.
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If the ad is still HERE, why don't you leave a comment?

R.J.
 
I suggest forgetting about feedback entirely and going with a referral system. When you list an item you state that you will provide the emails of other members who'll vouch for you upon request. This could be someone who has purchased from you or not. In this way members can communicate with each other off list and don't have to play the quid pro quo feedback game ala ebay. Since RFF is a much smaller and friendlier community than ebay, members can vouch for the integrity of other members even if they haven't purchased from them and perhaps even go and look at something offered for sale to a member in a different city.
 
Flyfisher Tom said:
Jamie raises another good point, bad/negative feedback left for someone --- should these comments turn out to be inaccurate, malicious or mean-spirited --- is grounds for libel. And since RFF is the host of these potentially libelous printed comments ... well, I'm sure you can finish the rest of this sentence yourself ...
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In general, I don't think libel is anything to fear, at least not more than in the regular forums. (I'm not a lawyer, but I'm a news copy editor who is always on the lookout for potential libel.) A classified forum's feedback has a bit more leeway in commentary, like an editorial page. It can still happen there, and here, but probably unlikely as long as disputes/bad feedback are given the same scrutiny mods deal with in any heated thread. Mean-spiritedness isn't libelous, and malicious intent is only a burden of proof when the person claiming libel is a public figure. (That's US law, but from what I understand, it's nearly the same everywhere.)

I think bad feedback is a plus; it helps others judge for themselves. RFF is a community, not a utopia. It happens and should be aired out.

That said, I'm sorry that you had such a bad experience, Simon. I also buy a lot of stuff from people on forums and often prefer it, but I can understand getting sour to it all with one terrible transaction.
 
Jorge,

I don't think think you want or even can be somehow a guardian of consumer rights involving all kinds of transactions between people all over the world. Besides to be fair you also have to protect all sides: buyer/seller. Sometimes buyers are as unreasonable as sellers.

Feedback is a good approach. If feedback is consistently poor you can bar or ban a buyer/seller. I think I pointed out once here somewhere that the main thing to watch for are scammers getting onto the site. The sort of thing that happens on eBay (stolen identities, items at prices too good to be true, etc.). These people are the main ones that need to be policed out.

-- David
 
Originally posted by RJ Bender
Some of the other photo forums require that all sellers offer a 10 day money back guarantee. It's not a bad idea.
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This would solve most problems. If we are friends selling to friends then we want our friend to be happy with their purchase. Take the thing back even if they just change their mind within 10 days. Buyer to pay shipping in most cases. Tweak the rule to make the most sense and have feedback if people will not abide.

I would rather not be leaving any sort of negative feedback about people in the forum whom we expect to be friends with for years to come. 🙂
 
stet said:
Mean-spiritedness isn't libelous, and malicious intent is only a burden of proof when the person claiming libel is a public figure.
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You are correct 🙂 It is, however, unusual to be mean-spirited or malicious about the truth. Usually one is mean-spirited or malicious in spreading untruths and inaccuracies. That is why I phrased it that way 😉

Since you spoke of blackletter law, libel is simply a false publication. Inaccuracy about a person or entity that is published is enough to trigger liability. Elements are:

1. a false and defamatory statement concerning another;
2. publications to 3rd parties other than the defamed;
3. damage to plaintiff (for instance, professional/personal reputation)

Whether RFF wants to be the arbiter as to whether feedback is merely opinion ("the transaction was unpleasant and unsatisfactory") or defamatory/libelous ( "the seller is a total fraud and cheat") ... that is the key concern here 😉

I agree that a truly working feedback system (both positive and negative) is wonderful. But as I noted in a previous post, and as was ironically evident in this thread itself, most negative feedback is under-reported. Thus, making the system only half effective. Just look at Ebay's under-reported negative feedback system for a taste of how ineffective it really is.

In the final analysis, checking on the following can help but will not necessarily guarantee success :

1) how long has the seller been a RFF member; does he/she contribute more than just FS posts;
2) does the seller have positive feedback already in the RFF feedback thread;
3) ask the seller for other references ( Pnet or Ebay)
4) read the seller's prior posts to establish a sense of the person
5) be prepared to lose the amount you spend in the worst case scenario

I've only purchased from long-time RFF members, people with whom I have a sense of comfort with, either through conversation or through reading their posts. I have never had a problem so far. And on balance, I still think RFF is one of the best places to buy.
 
Imposing a minimum 10 day return period will cause a lot of problemsj, I'm sure. Buyers remorse, people who damage something within the large TEN day window, etc. If buyers are prepared to deal with returns, they'll offer them anyway, since they help increase sales. I've frequented online FS forums for everything from computer hardware, fountain pens, to watches, paintball guns and knives, and one thing I've seen be true in all cases is that the less oversight/complexity added by mods, the better.

A new feedback forum would help a lot, with a thread for each user. Other than that, the best approach is to set some basic rules, and just make sure everyone knows that there is risk involved, and that they should do their best to practice safe buying techniques. Things to do: check feedback and any provided references, get a real (not free) email address and a phone number, check the phone number, pay with a credit card if possible, etc.

Trying to police the classfieds with more rules and regulations is only going to further diminish it.
 
Jorge,
There is one simple answer, if the classified are proving to be a problem, then stop them. This is a camera forum not a market place. I know it sounds harsh and I have benefited greatly from both buying and selling on the forum but if it is going to cause damage, it would be better to do without it.

I can't speak for the other 2 or you but as a Mod, I do not want to get involved in disputes. This job is difficult enough as it is. I have always tried to be impartial and I think we generally succeed. In an exchange of words, it is often quite possible to find a solution and nothing is lost except perhaps some pride. When money is involved it is different. No matter how impartially I acted, there will be a winner and a loser and with it accusations of siding with friends/old-timers etc.

As to a feedback rating system, especially such as eBay, I don't think they work. If a buyer or seller acts dishonestly, the feedback they leave is also likely to be dishonest. As Luigi has pointed out nearly half the negative feedback on eBay is false and retaliatory.

In the past it worked very well. About the only complaints were because some missed out on a good deal due to a mix up with posts as opposed to emails or PMs.
There were a few misunderstandings usually because one party had a problem. The most notable of these recently was probably when a member "seemed" to have disappeared. In the end though, I get the impression that it all worked out and most were happy.
Although many left comments in the feedback thread, I am not sure that this was used all that much. It is not very user friendly. I think it worked partly because we were smaller but mainly because it worked on a referral scheme. If you look in the "old" threads most contained quite a few posts with many saying it was a good deal and recommending the seller etc. The new ones have this facility but it doesn't seem to be used. It might be because we are bigger but more likely that most log on the recent threads page. The ads appeared as new posts and many would look out of interest and perhaps add something. With the new ones, you have to go looking and as most of us are lazy, we don't go there unless looking for something.

I am not a fan of restrictions based on post counts (promotes spamming) or time on board etc. Members are members and should not be "classed". Besides several members have benefited from good deals from newer members either because they were known elsewhere or someone has come asking for advice about an inheritance or similar.

More questions than answers I'm afraid but for me the important points are:
The forum is more important than the sales. If the sales cause problems for the board they should be dropped rather than cause damage. They have to be caveat emptor and neither you nor the mods should be involved in policing them or acting to resolve disputes.
The only reliable "recommendation" system is one based on referral rather than feedback.

Kim
 
One thing I've noticed on RFF is that posting a link to your eBay auction seems to be frowned upon. I really don't understand why. 😕

For example, Honu-Hugger has a bunch of primo Contax and Alpa gear listed on eBay right now and he hasn't said a word about it here on RFF. Is it because he'd get flamed if he mentioned it?

R.J.
 
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