Kodak on 10 Brands that will Disappear in 2010 List

[Jamie123]

Wow, do you have to take yourself *that* seriously to join this thread?

The guy just posted some of his pictures (nice ones, I might add). He loves film, the message is simple.

Relax 🙂

It's just that this kind of shameless self promotion is very annoying. I'm sure he's one of those people who post the same few pictures (crappy ones, I might add) in every other thread because he's so damn proud of them. And of course he posts them because he expects to be complimented on them. Personally, I think they're sh*t but of course I shouldn't say this because it's considered rude.

ok, now I'll relax 🙂

 

[Roger Hicks]

Yes it will and Efke, Adox, Agfa (it's coming back), Foma, Forte (it's coming back too) and a couple of Chinese companies too. These smaller companies are making very fine film now and producing some of the 40's-50's emulsions again that have that beautiful rich tonality that we've gotten away from. Outside of Kodak we have a better selection of B&W film and fine B&W papers than we've had in decades. The little companies like Efke/ Adox and Foma don't have to make 400M a year to keep running. The void left in the market if Kodak bites the bullet will insure the success of these smaller companies for many years. Kodak might go away but film will not for decades. Kodak has been on life support since Fuji came into the US. Kodak simply can not adjust to not being the king of photography and if they can't own 90% of the market they dump it and they no longer own the film / photo market. Looking back forty years at all the film and paper Kodak has discontinued is just staggering. Kodak made dozens of B&W emulsions when I got into photography fifty years ago. They made a dozen or more different papers and that many more surfaces. Dupont was big in the film and paper market as well as Ansco and then GAF. The world of photography won't die even if Kodak does.

Sources?

(Not arguing; just haven't seen what I would regard as convincing news).

Cheers,

R.

 

[Nescio]

It's just that this kind of shameless self promotion is very annoying. I'm sure he's one of those people who post the same few pictures (crappy ones, I might add) in every other thread because he's so damn proud of them. And of course he posts them because he expects to be complimented on them. Personally, I think they're sh*t but of course I shouldn't say this because it's considered rude.

So, I've read an entire thread about fearing fishermen fondling in a fools pond at a moonless night and suddenly someone starts trolling around. And I'm not amused, or should i say; NO FUN...?

Now, what really amuses me, is that most of us here seem to follow financial fashion fodder up to the umpteenth degree. That's fine with me, but I just wonder where that actually came from. I'm old enough to know how things were before Reagan & Thatcher came in and - hopefully - still young enough to see another change come.

And maybe, just maybe, there'll be some place left for the idealist entrepreneur (don't like the word hobbyist, really) in the near future to make that film that we supposedly want or need so badly.

Sorry, bmattock, no facts nor figures here, just my two drops of optimism (or common sense, everything changes, you know); much more fun than fearing the worst for sure.

 

[wgerrard]

By not officially acknowledging that Kodak's their supplier, it doesn't dilute the Kodak brand and can only increase their sales as an additional revenue stream. That is a good thing for any company, especially one that's struggling as Kodak seems to be.

If Kodak could sell all of the Tri-X it produces, or has stashed away, why in the world wouldn't they just sell it, rather than letting Freestyle rebadge it and sell it for less?

If I can sell 500 widgets for $5.00 each, what incentive do I have to sell 250 of them to you for $1.50?

 

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

Don't worry, Obama will bail them out if they're about to go under!

No he won't. He only care about banks. Getting him to help GM and Chrysler was like pulling teeth. The govt. eventually helped those industrial companies but they had to jump through hoops to get it. Kodak's an industrial company and the ruling class in this country thinks we can stay prosperous by pushing paper for a living while other countries actually produce useful things.

 

[DerekF]

If Kodak could sell all of the Tri-X it produces, or has stashed away, why in the world wouldn't they just sell it, rather than letting Freestyle rebadge it and sell it for less?

If I can sell 500 widgets for $5.00 each, what incentive do I have to sell 250 of them to you for $1.50?

Bill,

As has already been pointed out, cash flow is the obvious answer to this. If this "experiment" is considered successful, Kodak might even expand this "program" to other films. Although they may make less profit, at the end of the day it's still pretty much win-win for Kodak. They sell Kodak-branded Tri-X at full price to those who insist on it (or who don't know about the Freestyle arrangement) while still capitalizing on all the cheapskates like myself. 😀

 

[bmattock]

Bill I guess I should have checked with you first. You seem to know everything.

Not everything. But some things.

I've read articles recently say they are coming back. Time will tell won't it?

Yes, it will. I'm prepared to accept your capitulation or to offer mine, as required.

 

[Roger Hicks]

If Kodak could sell all of the Tri-X it produces, or has stashed away, why in the world wouldn't they just sell it, rather than letting Freestyle rebadge it and sell it for less?

If I can sell 500 widgets for $5.00 each, what incentive do I have to sell 250 of them to you for $1.50?

Dear Bill,

Economies of scale. The marginal cost of 250 extra widgets when you're making 500 anyway might be $0.50/widget. That's $1/widget profit.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Keith]

About Kodak and Freestyle Arista Premium ... it probably also helps to keep the wheels turning when you have god knows how many kilometers of frozen Tri-X stock in a vault somewhere!

 

[bmattock]

Dear Bill,

Economies of scale. The marginal cost of 250 extra widgets when you're making 500 anyway might be $0.50/widget. That's $1/widget profit.

Cheers,

R.

Which means you have excess capacity you can't sell through normal retail channels. That balance continues to dip as 'brand-name' demand drops, until you sell 500 cheap widgets and 250 retail, then 900 cheap and 10 brand-name, and then your cheap channel can't move any more cheap widgets and you have to stop - because the nature of your manufacturing doesn't scale well in a downward direction. Fixed costs such as physical plant and minimum labor necessary to keep the manufacturing belt moving at all mean there is a minimum break-even point, below which it no longer makes sense to produce any at all. Then you run a few really big last runs and turn off the lights. Ask AgfaPhoto.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Which means you have excess capacity you can't sell through normal retail channels. That balance continues to dip as 'brand-name' demand drops, until you sell 500 cheap widgets and 250 retail, then 900 cheap and 10 brand-name, and then your cheap channel can't move any more cheap widgets and you have to stop - because the nature of your manufacturing doesn't scale well in a downward direction. Fixed costs such as physical plant and minimum labor necessary to keep the manufacturing belt moving at all mean there is a minimum break-even point, below which it no longer makes sense to produce any at all. Then you run a few really big last runs and turn off the lights. Ask AgfaPhoto.

Dear Bill,

No it doesn't. Freestyle IS a normal retail channel.

Ask anyone involved in film manufacture and they'll tell you the same thing: they keep on working out ways to coat film faster and more cheaply, on substantially the same line. Why not run the line a bit longer and earn a bit more profit?

If you knew who coats what for whom, and (still more) who did so in the past, you might be surprised.

Cheers,

R.

 

[aizan]

what really happened at agfa, anyway?

 

[Rob-F]

Well, I just ordered 60 rolls of Tri-X from B & H. That ought to keep Kodak in business for a couple more hours. (You know, if we all did this, it might send them a message.)

 

[bmattock]

what really happened at agfa, anyway?

Why, nothing happened! Ask anyone (on RFF). Agfa Gevaert spun off AgfaPhoto so that it would die because they saw the writing on the wall. But not if you talk to the True Believers (tm). If you ask them, AgfaPhoto went bankrupt because of evil capitalists, not because they weren't selling enough film to remain profitable. And in any case, someone will buy their assets and start AgfaPhoto back up again. And even if the old factories were knocked down and the manufacturing equipment hauled away to South Korea to make coated (non-photographic) film, they're still sure that a new deal will be announced ANY DAY NOW that will bring Agfa roaring back to life. And besides, AgfaPhoto is already back, they read it somewhere or other, even if they can't quite find the news location where it was stated, they heard it from a guy who heard it from another guy, but in any case, it doesn't matter, because if you don't think AgfaPhoto is coming back, you're just a HATER and you should not be allowed on RFF.

The truth is the company went bankrupt. The bits of it were sold off, and they had a lot of film in cold storage that is still being parceled out, but there is nothing new being made. Sad but true. However, lots of people like to believe utter nonsense because it makes them feel better. And I'm a hater for busting their bubbles.

 

[bmattock]

No it doesn't. Freestyle IS a normal retail channel.

No it isn't. Kroger grocery store is a normal retail channel. Wal-Mart is a normal retail channel. Adorama isn't, Freestyle isn't, B&H isn't. Consumer sales ruled when film was king. Freestyle was and is a specialty marketer. A great one, and one I buy from all the time. But the mainstream has never even heard of it.

 

[aizan]

so all of agfaphoto's manufacturing equipment was sold off to someone in south korea?

 

[aizan]

No it isn't. Kroger grocery store is a normal retail channel. Wal-Mart is a normal retail channel. Adorama isn't, Freestyle isn't, B&H isn't. Consumer sales ruled when film was king. Freestyle was and is a specialty marketer. A great one, and one I buy from all the time. But the mainstream has never even heard of it.

unless you live in los angeles, especially hollywood.

 

[carlb]

Oh well, even if all the film manufacturers closed their doors tomorrow, there should be some bargains to be had so I'll just buy a freezer and load up.

 

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

Why, nothing happened! Ask anyone (on RFF). Agfa Gevaert spun off AgfaPhoto so that it would die because they saw the writing on the wall. But not if you talk to the True Believers (tm). If you ask them, AgfaPhoto went bankrupt because of evil capitalists, not because they weren't selling enough film to remain profitable. And in any case, someone will buy their assets and start AgfaPhoto back up again. And even if the old factories were knocked down and the manufacturing equipment hauled away to South Korea to make coated (non-photographic) film, they're still sure that a new deal will be announced ANY DAY NOW that will bring Agfa roaring back to life. And besides, AgfaPhoto is already back, they read it somewhere or other, even if they can't quite find the news location where it was stated, they heard it from a guy who heard it from another guy, but in any case, it doesn't matter, because if you don't think AgfaPhoto is coming back, you're just a HATER and you should not be allowed on RFF.

The truth is the company went bankrupt. The bits of it were sold off, and they had a lot of film in cold storage that is still being parceled out, but there is nothing new being made. Sad but true. However, lots of people like to believe utter nonsense because it makes them feel better. And I'm a hater for busting their bubbles.

Bill you keep parroting this line, but its not true. Yes, Agfa the company is gone and will not be back, but the owner of Fotoimpex Berlin hired a bunch of Agfa employees and bought some of the equipment from Agfa and began making one of Agfa's papers. He did it. Not a fantasy or a wish, it f--king happened. They are going to begin production of APX 100 and 400 films when the old stock is finally sold out. They'll be sold under the Adox name, not Agfa, but they'll be very similar to the originals, just like the paper they're NOW MAKING.

 

[bmattock]

unless you live in los angeles, especially hollywood.

By definition, most of America does not live in LA, let alone near Hollywood. My wife is from NYC and she used to get like that too. She thought that everyone had a bodega on every street corner, and no one had to have a car to get to work. Because, you know, everyplace is exactly the same as Manhattan.