Leica M Digital Back Conversion/Prototype

I'm not sure the OP understands how a digital camera works. As for the dust problem, digital cameras use metal shutters because cloth shutters create dust every time they fire. They are made of cloth. Think of the lint in you clothes dryer after drying your shirts.
 
BillP said:
So, ISO is set on the back...

How and where will you set white balance?

How and where will you indicate number of shots?

How will you format an SD card? Review and delete images when out and about?

How will you set date and time for exif?

If you use a CMOS sensor, how will you dissipate the heat generated?

Regards,

Bill
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Benjamin said:
Not to be unkind, but what's your history with electronics, engineering, etcetera?

Have you tried anything similar in the past? It will surely be interesting to see the prototype, and I said before, best of luck with the work. Anything that gives people more options with regard to RF cameras in the digital world is to be encouraged.
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White Balance is actually post process in-camera on consumer cameras, on this there will be no in-camera JPEG, it will be a sensor dump RAW file. I would develop my own RAW format with the appropriate converter/reader plugin. (from my research, not that difficult, as the sensor data is fairly standard) So to answer the question: White balance would be done post-process like you were shooting RAW

number of shots would be dependent on the size of the SD card, and would be calculated, and displayed on the LCD. (the number should be large, so it won't be constantly displayed.) The existing frame count window will not be coupled to anything.

Formatting the SD card, will be done on-camera with the LCD menu (I will develop a firmware for the device) (or you can do it with your computer)

date and time will be a simple clock in the camera, that will append the data to the file.

I am hoping NOT to use a CMOS sensor, I would much rather use the superior Kodak CCD, (like the M9) but if I must, I will have to use an aluminum plate (like Canon cameras) to draw the heat.

Needing to know my history is understandable, and expected,
my background is in communications, and electronics. Though I have never designed a camera before, I don't expect to do this project in a vacuum. I have an associate who has more knowledge about the nuts and bolts of the CCD and architecture (he has agreed to help me on the prototype)

-Ezra
 
1. Price? 1/2 the price of a M9, presuming IQ, handling and durability are all there. Can't be much bigger than a stock M. Even the size of a winder would keep me from it. I'd even be willing to lose the rear LCD to keep battery life reasonable from smaller batteries.

2. Crop sensor? A crop sensor might be okay for a reversible conversion kit or if a sensor was better at low-light, better dynamic range, dedicated for black and white, or for a live-view capability with long lenses.

3. Other features? A version for the Zeiss Ikon so I can use its glorious finder.
 
digital M conversion

digital M conversion

Forget about the lcd screen integrated in the new back, but think of an external screen that can be connected to the camera when necessary. This should give you more space for the sensor and the electronics. This will be a winner for sure. Good luck !
 
Pickett Wilson said:
I'm not sure the OP understands how a digital camera works. As for the dust problem, digital cameras use metal shutters because cloth shutters create dust every time they fire. They are made of cloth. Think of the lint in you clothes dryer after drying your shirts.
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At-least in my M2, the shutter is not simply cloth, but a sort-of rubber impregnated cloth.
I have never noticed any buildup of dust from the shutter over time.
do the other M cameras use simple cloth shutters?
If so, that may be a problem.
if they are like mine, the rubber coating/treatment seems to prevent the cloth fibers from separating from the shutter.
 
If you could make it work, I'd buy one. That said, it seems to me that if this were feasible, Leica or CV or someone else would have done it by now knowing what a large captive audience they have who would clamor to retrofit their existing M's. To Leica, from a business perspective this would be no different than selling new glass to owners of 10, 20, 50-year old bodies. Or, for that matter, hardly any different from Mr. Kobayashi selling many of us CV glass. If a digital back could be engineered, I'll bet Leica would have done it themselves and sold a whole pile of them at $2 to 4K, as many of us would have been takers.

So, I think this is a monumental task. I'll try to balance my skeptical cynicism here against hopeful optimism. I think the many technical issues raised here argue against this being workable, practical, reliable and manufacturable at any reasonable price. The cloth shutter issue alone could doom such a conversion to an unusable conversation piece.

However.... Like I said at the beginning, if you can make it work, I'd buy one.

I'll root for you, but my expectations are low. Good luck.

BTW, make this easy on yourself; leave out the LCD display. All us past and present film shooters lived pretty well without it, so why clutter up and make more complicated an already immense task. Just get the thing to fit the body, actually make pictures and not get fried every second or third frame and you'd be a candidate for so major engineering/product design award. Keep tilting at those windmills.
 
Even if you did not have an LCD, it would add thickness to the back door. With an LCD, it would be quite a bump. I think that would be uncomfortable with a right-eyed shooter trying to get his eye up to the finder eyepiece. It would be rather unpleasant for us left-eyed shooters digging our faces into that lump. Even the ergonomics would be a problem.
 
Great!

Great!

Ezra, congratulations!

You MUST continue with this, no matter what dust comes in!

To my regard you can skip the LCD! perhaps you can put a cable plug in order to use the cel phone screen to view. OWE
The only reason i use the epson screen is due to the framelines not so accurate!

Make it the most simple and lightweight as you can.

Don´t try to make it perfect, probably you´ll have to make a few prototypes any way!

It´s not important to be the best but to be the first !

Bye
 
Just the other day, someone mentioned an Open Source digital camera. The hardware part was a behemoth but the attempts at writing an Open Sourced firmware sounded intriguing.

In any event, I would suggest not to "invent" yet another raw file format. There must be at least some which are open standards and applicable to the sensor being used. Sigma have their own format and I can not use their converter in Linux. Epson uses a better known format and I can use their converter or one which comes with Linux. Guess which one I would choose, given any choice?

Taking the winders as an example, I can see a certain class of Leica owners who would put up with a taller body. Hence, you could place all of the camera into an "extended" body.

Lastly - as I already have mentioned over there - have you considered the Foveon sensor? Yes, using that sensor could result in using Sigma's raw format as well.
 
How about converting a Hexar AF to FF digital ? In-lens shutter and available battery and electronic signals might help; you can also reprogram the autofocus in case you change the registration distance slightly .... And it would be a killer tool. If nicely done I for one would pay US 2k for it, at least.
 
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robklurfield said:
If you could make it work, I'd buy one. That said, it seems to me that if this were feasible, Leica or CV or someone else would have done it by now knowing what a large captive audience they have who would clamor to retrofit their existing M's. To Leica, from a business perspective this would be no different than selling new glass to owners of 10, 20, 50-year old bodies. Or, for that matter, hardly any different from Mr. Kobayashi selling many of us CV glass. If a digital back could be engineered, I'll bet Leica would have done it themselves and sold a whole pile of them at $2 to 4K, as many of us would have been takers.
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Pickett Wilson said:
Even if you did not have an LCD, it would add thickness to the back door. With an LCD, it would be quite a bump. I think that would be uncomfortable with a right-eyed shooter trying to get his eye up to the finder eyepiece. It would be rather unpleasant for us left-eyed shooters digging our faces into that lump. Even the ergonomics would be a problem.
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popch said:
Have you considered the Foveon sensor? Yes, using that sensor could result in using Sigma's raw format as well.
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digitalintrigue said:
You sure you can buy the Kodak sensor with microlenses? Do you have the ability to write firmware?
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ferider said:
How about converting a Hexar AF to FF digital ? In-lens shutter and available battery and electronic signals might help; you can also reprogram the autofocus in case you change the registration distance slightly .... And it would be a killer tool. If nicely done I for one would pay US 2k for it, at least.
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robklurfield: I know that Leica did make a back for their SLR, but with the M9 in the running, I don't think that they will be making a back for the M3/2/1/4/6/7 to avoid it cannibalizing the sales of the M9. But even if they do, I think it would be even more than what I am looking to do. And maybe I will be their first customer. If it comes to naught, at-least no one can say I didn't try. i am doing this to scratch my own itch. It is something I want first and foremost.

Pickett Wilson: I love the size/form of the M, and wouldn't want to change it at all. I wouldn't add height (like a winder) but I wouldn't think that about 4mm bezel bulge on the rear would be too much for the LCD... It may make a few cases fit snug, but these cases won't have a cutout for the LCD anyway, so why use it? I wouldn't make it too hard-edged, and also wouldn't make it centered on the back (probably) because i need the room for the CCD.

popch: The Foveon sensor is an amazing peice of hardware, but there are two considerations that made me shy away from it.
1: it is a CMOS sensor, that will require more heat-dissipation, and it is physically thicker than the CCD I am prototyping.
2: As far as I have been able to find, they have yet to produce a full-frame version. The largest I can find is only 24mm diagonal. Full frame 35mm is 43mm diagonal.

digitalintrigue: Yes, I have been in contact with Kodak about the sensors. They won't sell the 18 megapixel CCD used in the M9 (because Leica had it made special) but they do have other full frame sensors with edge micro-lenses.
I have a price quote from Kodak in front of me right now.

As to firmware, yes, Firmware is software on a chip, and not hard to do. I intend to keep it simple, and to the point. So this will not be an insurmountable challenge. The hardware will present more problems I assure you! :)

ferider: IF (and thats a big if) I get to production on this project, I will look at other cameras, but for the time being, I chose the Leica M for a few reasons:
1: I have one, and want a digital back! :)
2: There is a large cult following that will hopefully make the investment feasible.
3: They command a high price, making it more cost-effective to make a $1k-$2k product.

-Ezra
PS, thanks for all the input!
 
The idea is simple and brilliant, but has been up before. Of course it's possible to do this, with some limitations. The same limitations as you are used to with film.

-Don't bother with an LCD. It'll cost too much and require a larger battery and different/faster image processing.

-Don't bother with white balance, JPG-rendering or such. Just a pure DNG file written to the card.

-Metering is the same as with film. Set the ISO on the "module" and make it correspond to what the camera meter setting (i.e. choosing the same ISO for the "film" on the camera).

-Don't bother with displaying battery life or how many shots you've got before the card is full. An 8 gigabyte card is equal to many many rolls of film, and I can't imagine a buyer of this product seeing a problem with that.

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Now, for the REAL problems.

-How do you get the electronics "started" quick enough for taking a picture? Perhaps a little button on the back and a diod indicating "ready" would do it. You probably can't leave the electronics "on" all of the time, since it would drain the battery very quickly.

Edit: A very small b/w screen only showing a histogram could be useful though. This could also show remaining space on the card, if that's required.
 
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A no frills back in theory wouldn't be very difficult. Shoot raw only, no LCD (perhaps a readout for iso and battery life). I don't see it being possible to make it an easily detachable back, however. It seems as though you'd have to fit the battery where the film canister would go.

Anyways, no lcd and no image processor would make for small form factor back. It might be best to start with a cheaper cropped sensor to work out the kinks with getting a functional prototype. I wouldn't mind a cropped back
 
"Don't bother with white balance, JPG-rendering or such. Just a pure DNG file written to the card."

But a "pure" DNG file isn't "pure." You would still have to have a processor to create the DNG from the data off the sensor. Once you have that, why not put in jpg and all the functions? Wouldn't cost any more. Just software.
 
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