dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
Thanks Jaap.
You (as well as many others here) know that I spoke, at times, vehemently against the camera - but I really think that, yes, while it is an expensive camera (but so were Leica's film bodies - I could never afford a "new" M6 for example when I lusted after it.. even in the mid to late 90's), it's not a "horrible" camera. And after seeing what can be done with it, and actually printing out some stuff from it, it's not half bad and part of the equation is, to be honest, the fact that it's fun and light to use.
The only thing I would comment is that Leica's QC is pretty bad but then again, as I have stated elsewhere, with only 451 staff in the Solms location, you can bet that they don't have a huge production line running with QC folks everywhere. Larger companies can, and do, have larger QC divisions - even if Leica were to allot 10% of their staff compliment (quite huge when you consider the over all size of the company) to QC that's still only 45 staff - hardly enough for worldwide support.
Cheers,
Dave
Ray Kilby
Established
M8 A piece of Garbage?
M8 A piece of Garbage?
First I’d like to say that to critise another persons work as a means to disagree is both childish and unhelpful. Ara Ghajanian has the right to voice an opinion, whether or not he is right or wrong and to ‘go for the jugular’ just shows that FioreVelviamo has no real confidence in any real argument.
As for the M8, well I agree it is not for everybody and some of us will love it, and some will not.
I did have an M8 for a while, and did get some very good shots out of it. I have always used an M6 when doing anything that is of a reportage nature and I believe that a range finder camera for this sort of work is the best. I like the lightness, the compactness of the body and the sheer quality of Leica lenses is second to none. The M6 is still is my favourite camera. The M8 however started to let me down. Small niggling issues such as back focus problems, odd colour shifts (Nothing to do with not using the filters,by the way.) and light getting into the body somehow. Not to mention it occasionally misfiring and scrolling during play back and being electronically eccentric while accessing the menus. I also didn’t like the interface with the camera, preferring the RD1 to be honest, but that’s personal and not an issue that I can really critise to be fair.
As for noise, well Leica have always had a noise problem with its digital cameras in my opinion and I could have lived with that. You just basically under expose with a digital image and it works out OK.
I began not putting the M8 in my bag if I was going on a paid job, but would take the Epson RD1 instead as my back up to my Canon 5Ds. So as my warrantee was about to expire I decided to send the camera back to Leica to be fully overhauled. I sent a letter and stills to show my concerns and to hopefully put them in the right direction. After eight weeks it came back from Sohms with no explanation and some circles on the prints around the problems and with indecipherable squiggles next to them. Not very helpful and not very useful for a camera body that costs around 3k to purchase.
I took the camera out to test it , found it to be the same. I then bench tested it against my M6 my RD1 for focus issues and found that the M6 and the RD1 were spot on but the M8 was not. I wrote to Leica, explaining this and never got a reply let alone any acknowledgement. I gave up, sold the M8 and purchased a Nikon D3 and a couple of Ziess Lenses. It is everything that the M8 is not and I might add Nikon have themselves been fantastically helpful and their pro scheme is excellent.
This posting on to the RFF saddens me. I want a digital M camera that is as good as the M6 or even slightly better than the RD1. But the M8, for me is still not it. I look at the M8’s in the camera shop, and keep hoping that Leica don’t shoot themselves completely in the foot with this flawed product. They have such a great history.
I feel that the M8 is just a luxury digital camera and I can’t afford the luxury of forgiveness or understanding when I rely upon a camera for work. I await with honest and open hope that suddenly the M8’s problems get fixed, or an M9 appears with all the issues of the M8 ironed out. ON that day I will be burning a hole in my credit card to get one.
M8 A piece of Garbage?
First I’d like to say that to critise another persons work as a means to disagree is both childish and unhelpful. Ara Ghajanian has the right to voice an opinion, whether or not he is right or wrong and to ‘go for the jugular’ just shows that FioreVelviamo has no real confidence in any real argument.
As for the M8, well I agree it is not for everybody and some of us will love it, and some will not.
I did have an M8 for a while, and did get some very good shots out of it. I have always used an M6 when doing anything that is of a reportage nature and I believe that a range finder camera for this sort of work is the best. I like the lightness, the compactness of the body and the sheer quality of Leica lenses is second to none. The M6 is still is my favourite camera. The M8 however started to let me down. Small niggling issues such as back focus problems, odd colour shifts (Nothing to do with not using the filters,by the way.) and light getting into the body somehow. Not to mention it occasionally misfiring and scrolling during play back and being electronically eccentric while accessing the menus. I also didn’t like the interface with the camera, preferring the RD1 to be honest, but that’s personal and not an issue that I can really critise to be fair.
As for noise, well Leica have always had a noise problem with its digital cameras in my opinion and I could have lived with that. You just basically under expose with a digital image and it works out OK.
I began not putting the M8 in my bag if I was going on a paid job, but would take the Epson RD1 instead as my back up to my Canon 5Ds. So as my warrantee was about to expire I decided to send the camera back to Leica to be fully overhauled. I sent a letter and stills to show my concerns and to hopefully put them in the right direction. After eight weeks it came back from Sohms with no explanation and some circles on the prints around the problems and with indecipherable squiggles next to them. Not very helpful and not very useful for a camera body that costs around 3k to purchase.
I took the camera out to test it , found it to be the same. I then bench tested it against my M6 my RD1 for focus issues and found that the M6 and the RD1 were spot on but the M8 was not. I wrote to Leica, explaining this and never got a reply let alone any acknowledgement. I gave up, sold the M8 and purchased a Nikon D3 and a couple of Ziess Lenses. It is everything that the M8 is not and I might add Nikon have themselves been fantastically helpful and their pro scheme is excellent.
This posting on to the RFF saddens me. I want a digital M camera that is as good as the M6 or even slightly better than the RD1. But the M8, for me is still not it. I look at the M8’s in the camera shop, and keep hoping that Leica don’t shoot themselves completely in the foot with this flawed product. They have such a great history.
I feel that the M8 is just a luxury digital camera and I can’t afford the luxury of forgiveness or understanding when I rely upon a camera for work. I await with honest and open hope that suddenly the M8’s problems get fixed, or an M9 appears with all the issues of the M8 ironed out. ON that day I will be burning a hole in my credit card to get one.
Ara Ghajanian
Established
If Sebastiao Salgado says the M8 is garbage, I'll listen.
If someone with garbage and blown red channel shots says the M8 is garbage, I'm sorry but I won't be listening.
In this case, the source is not credible. The M8 is not garbage
Did you realize that out of your 13 posts on this forum, 2 were direct insults toward another member who was offering his unbiased opinion on a matter? You act as if you were the sole designer of this camera and I insulted your life's work.
I'm disappointed because the camera has great potential, yet it falls very short of a much less expensive DSLR. Maybe if enough of us complain Leica will take it upon themselves to actually give us more than point and shoot quality in a tried and true camera design.
As far as your comments about my work, the band who paid me to shoot those shots loved them and hired me again. That's a professional. By the way, all the lights on stage were red. All of my other work done with live bands is shot with an M6. Leicas are great and I love my M6. I don't use DSLRs for this type of work exactly for the reasons Leicas stand out, compactness, portability, image quality, stealthiness, hand holding to low shutter speeds, lens quality.
By the way, this is a direct quote from this member sent to me as a PM:
"I am all you are, plus I don't cry over gear.
Your showcased work is garbage. Not the M8."
Ben Z
Veteran
Thanks Dan! I'm going to give that a try. I've been shooting everything at 160 and "pushing" it in ACR, then using Noise Ninja to clean up any residual noise I find objectionable, but I know I'm losing some quality in the process. I'm glad I waded through this cowpasture of a thread and found your post.
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Olsen
Well-known
I also had an utterly frustrating 8 to 9 months before I got used to the M8. But then I started to get to work as I want it to. - I have had similar frustrating introduction periods with all my digital cameras, from the first 1Ds up to the 1Ds III - which I am struggling with now.
Sure, the Canons has lower noice on high ISO (640ISO pluss) compared to the M8. But the few pro photographers I know seem to be very conservative with the ISO setting because the quality demand is so high. Regardless of what camera they use. They seem to be a lot more conserned with mediocre quality of Canon optics. Not to say the brutal and intimidating look of a pro Canon D-SLR. Some small children start to cry when I point my 1Ds III at them. And celebreties get wary and suspicius when you approach them with a 1Ds III over your shoulder. And, as one here pointed to; 'a D-SLR is utterly vulgar'.
All that said, M8 is far from a perfect digital camera for all the excellent Leica M bayonette optics that are available. Both 2.hand and new. - I would be utterly suspicious of buying (any more) Canon zooms 2. hand. They have a rather short product life, something that is easy to see with a 21 mill. sensor.
The worst issue with the M8, has been, for me, is reliability. It is the only camera I have had (I have had a few) to return to the factory. Those sold today are far better, I hear.
Then there is this color fringe/UV/IR filter problematics. My brother-in-law finds the M8 to be 'some s*t' since it makes him look like some hotel doorman when wearing his nice black blazer, - it comes out purple if I do't wear a IR/UV filter.
Then there is the high noice level on high ISO issue. As you say, the M8 is not usable above ISO640. One more click stop would make a hell of a difference. But there wont be any M9 with an improved sensor if too few buy m8....
Then there is the crop factor. I bought the WATE with my M8 which solves the problem, really. I don't think that it is possible to make a FF sensor for the M-system in forseable future. But then 1,33 is'nt all that bad. I think.
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Ray Kilby
Established
First I’d like to say that to critise another persons work as a means to disagree is both childish and unhelpful. Ara Ghajanian has the right to voice an opinion, whether or not he is right or wrong and to ‘go for the jugular’ just shows that FioreVelviamo has no real confidence in any real argument.
As for the M8, well I agree it is not for everybody and some of us will love it, and some will not.
I did have an M8 for a while, and did get some very good shots out of it. I have always used an M6 when doing anything that is of a reportage nature and I believe that a range finder camera for this sort of work is the best. I like the lightness, the compactness of the body and the sheer quality of Leica lenses is second to none. The M6 is still is my favourite camera. The M8 however started to let me down. Small niggling issues such as back focus problems, odd colour shifts (Nothing to do with not using the filters,by the way.) and light getting into the body somehow. Not to mention it occasionally misfiring and scrolling during play back and being electronically eccentric while accessing the menus. I also didn’t like the interface with the camera, preferring the RD1 to be honest, but that’s personal and not an issue that I can really critise to be fair.
As for noise, well Leica have always had a noise problem with its digital cameras in my opinion and I could have lived with that. You just basically under expose with a digital image and it works out OK.
I began not putting the M8 in my bag if I was going on a paid job, but would take the Epson RD1 instead as my back up to my Canon 5Ds. So as my warrantee was about to expire I decided to send the camera back to Leica to be fully overhauled. I sent a letter and stills to show my concerns and to hopefully put them in the right direction. After eight weeks it came back from Sohms with no explanation and some circles on the prints around the problems and with indecipherable squiggles next to them. Not very helpful and not very useful for a camera body that costs around 3k to purchase.
I took the camera out to test it , found it to be the same. I then bench tested it against my M6 my RD1 for focus issues and found that the M6 and the RD1 were spot on but the M8 was not. I wrote to Leica, explaining this and never got a reply let alone any acknowledgement. I gave up, sold the M8 and purchased a Nikon D3 and a couple of Ziess Lenses. It is everything that the M8 is not and I might add Nikon have themselves been fantastically helpful and their pro scheme is excellent.
This posting on to the RFF saddens me. I want a digital M camera that is as good as the M6 or even slightly better than the RD1. But the M8, for me is still not it. I look at the M8’s in the camera shop, and keep hoping that Leica don’t shoot themselves completely in the foot with this flawed product. They have such a great history.
I feel that the M8 is just a luxury digital camera and I can’t afford the luxury of forgiveness or understanding when I rely upon a camera for work. I await with honest and open hope that suddenly the M8’s problems get fixed, or an M9 appears with all the issues of the M8 ironed out. ON that day I will be burning a hole in my credit card to get one.
As for the M8, well I agree it is not for everybody and some of us will love it, and some will not.
I did have an M8 for a while, and did get some very good shots out of it. I have always used an M6 when doing anything that is of a reportage nature and I believe that a range finder camera for this sort of work is the best. I like the lightness, the compactness of the body and the sheer quality of Leica lenses is second to none. The M6 is still is my favourite camera. The M8 however started to let me down. Small niggling issues such as back focus problems, odd colour shifts (Nothing to do with not using the filters,by the way.) and light getting into the body somehow. Not to mention it occasionally misfiring and scrolling during play back and being electronically eccentric while accessing the menus. I also didn’t like the interface with the camera, preferring the RD1 to be honest, but that’s personal and not an issue that I can really critise to be fair.
As for noise, well Leica have always had a noise problem with its digital cameras in my opinion and I could have lived with that. You just basically under expose with a digital image and it works out OK.
I began not putting the M8 in my bag if I was going on a paid job, but would take the Epson RD1 instead as my back up to my Canon 5Ds. So as my warrantee was about to expire I decided to send the camera back to Leica to be fully overhauled. I sent a letter and stills to show my concerns and to hopefully put them in the right direction. After eight weeks it came back from Sohms with no explanation and some circles on the prints around the problems and with indecipherable squiggles next to them. Not very helpful and not very useful for a camera body that costs around 3k to purchase.
I took the camera out to test it , found it to be the same. I then bench tested it against my M6 my RD1 for focus issues and found that the M6 and the RD1 were spot on but the M8 was not. I wrote to Leica, explaining this and never got a reply let alone any acknowledgement. I gave up, sold the M8 and purchased a Nikon D3 and a couple of Ziess Lenses. It is everything that the M8 is not and I might add Nikon have themselves been fantastically helpful and their pro scheme is excellent.
This posting on to the RFF saddens me. I want a digital M camera that is as good as the M6 or even slightly better than the RD1. But the M8, for me is still not it. I look at the M8’s in the camera shop, and keep hoping that Leica don’t shoot themselves completely in the foot with this flawed product. They have such a great history.
I feel that the M8 is just a luxury digital camera and I can’t afford the luxury of forgiveness or understanding when I rely upon a camera for work. I await with honest and open hope that suddenly the M8’s problems get fixed, or an M9 appears with all the issues of the M8 ironed out. ON that day I will be burning a hole in my credit card to get one.
rxmd
May contain traces of nut
Well but if I take this argument and look at the camera that was made, the M8 becomes pretty assailable; when something like image quality bothers you, suddenly you can't overlook it because it's expensive. More so if it does other things wrong too, such as if you're not a detacheable baseplate type of guy.
For the same reason the usual comparison with the 5D is obviously biased against the 5D, just like comparing $350 to $1000 laptops. It would probably be fairer to compare to a Nikon D3 which is in the same price league. I realize that not everyone has a D3 and therefore there are less people who can compare their subjective impressions of both.
I think this kind of thread really shows that the M8 is only for people who like the M8 form factor and viewfinder, who have a certain emotional investment in traditional Leicas, and who are willing to make certain sacrifices in features, cost and ergonomics for the sake of this form factor and traditionalism. The OP is apparently not among these people, other people are, which is perfectly fine for both.
Whether it's worth a flamewar is another matter. Guys, just remind yourselves that it's a camera, it's a consumable object, it's not a religion and it's not a question of right or wrong. Would you flame each other over hamburgers or car tyres or toilet paper?
Philipp
Ara Ghajanian
Established
I would like to thank the people who pointed out that FioreVelviamo's response was uncalled for. Whether you like my work or not is not the issue here, but I AM a professional and the comment made is slanderous. If you do a search on Google for my name, this post will come up. Thus a potential client may see that someone has called my work "garbage" and decide not to work with me. It's unlikely this will happen, but it is still a possibility and I take this comment very seriously.
Once again, my comments were made not to bash this camera, but to light a small fire under Leica's ass so that in the future they may offer us a camera that is worthy of the Leica reputation.
Ara
Once again, my comments were made not to bash this camera, but to light a small fire under Leica's ass so that in the future they may offer us a camera that is worthy of the Leica reputation.
Ara
shimo-kitasnap
everything is temporary..
Right On!
I love the film Ms too but I think Leica is slowly on it's way out. Frankly I think the only way they are going to stay in business is to make lenses (which are amazing) for 3rd parties like Zeiss with cheaper Japanese labor.
EOS, Nikon, Olympus, Sony, Pentax with purpose built summicrons and other lenses at competitive prices would be great along with M lenses and M film bodies to keep us happy.
They didn't jump into digital when Canon and Nikon did and when they did, they were ignorant, naive and stubborn to design a product that could compete with the DSLRs and they trying to call their M8 an "investment" offering to take cameras back to be upgraded while you fork over more $$$$ or euros and wait half a year. And even then the improvements still won't be able to compete with what Canon and Nikon will come out with next year for even less than the prices of they're new models this year. Don't even get me started on the IR cut filters on every lens........
I love the film Ms too but I think Leica is slowly on it's way out. Frankly I think the only way they are going to stay in business is to make lenses (which are amazing) for 3rd parties like Zeiss with cheaper Japanese labor.
EOS, Nikon, Olympus, Sony, Pentax with purpose built summicrons and other lenses at competitive prices would be great along with M lenses and M film bodies to keep us happy.
They didn't jump into digital when Canon and Nikon did and when they did, they were ignorant, naive and stubborn to design a product that could compete with the DSLRs and they trying to call their M8 an "investment" offering to take cameras back to be upgraded while you fork over more $$$$ or euros and wait half a year. And even then the improvements still won't be able to compete with what Canon and Nikon will come out with next year for even less than the prices of they're new models this year. Don't even get me started on the IR cut filters on every lens........
tbarker13
shooter of stuff
The best remark of the whole thread so far Tony ....could not agree more.
In fact i never ever use the M8 below iso 640 for that reaon
!
Same here. My M8 is set, by default, at ISO 640 for this very reason. I prefer the look of the shots in B&W.
I'm not too concerned about the OP getting flamed here. That's pretty much what he expected to have happen when he offered his opinion as "the truth."
If the camera doesn't work for your style of shooting, sell it and move on. Though really, at this point, there's been so much written about this camera, it is just hard for me to imagine someone plunking down $5,000 without doing some basic research - which clearly wasn't done by the OP.
He could have saved himself a lot of heartburn and a few hundred dollars by spending a few hours reading posts here and on the L-Camera forum.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Someone mentioned working with the noise of the M8 at ISO's above 640 which is a relevant point and something I've just accidentally discovered myself. I had several raw images I shot at 640 ISO in very low light and underexposed somewhat ... which accentuated the noise when I tried to salvage the images with shadow recovery software. Then, dealing with the noise by filtering and smoothing it gave them a look I liked ... the excessive detail and sharpness which has always bothered me with digital photos just wasn't there ... so in a nutshell the M8 really fits with my shooting style!
Ara's case is genuine and his dislike of the M8's performance is driven by different requirements and preferences dictated by his style of photography, which is fair enough. Maybe he should have been a little less confrontational with his labeling of the camera as 'garbage?' That type of remark will always envoke some pretty strong emotions and reactions around here!
Ara's case is genuine and his dislike of the M8's performance is driven by different requirements and preferences dictated by his style of photography, which is fair enough. Maybe he should have been a little less confrontational with his labeling of the camera as 'garbage?' That type of remark will always envoke some pretty strong emotions and reactions around here!
tbarker13
shooter of stuff
Oh please. Sure his comment was uncalled for and rude. But people have the right and the freedom to offer opinions of your work. That's not going to meet any legal definition of slander.
dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
Hmm.. well... under Canadian law (after all, I am in Canada Eh
).. what was written can be defined as libel versus slander.That is; Defamation is written or spoken injury to a person or organization's reputation. Libel is the written act of defamation. Slander is the oral act of defamation. So, unless it was spoken aloud and heard, recorded etc. it's more than likely Libel versus Slander.
Proving that one's reputation was so egregiously damaged would be difficult - especially when talking about "teh intrawebs"
Cheers,
Dave
tbarker13
shooter of stuff
I doubt that offering an opinion on someone else's work is going to be considered libel/slander - in Canada or anywhere else.
And really, the original poster needs to hope so. After all, if he can claim that he has been slandered by a poster here. I would imagine that Leica Camera could make a similar claim against him.
I believe he did call the camera "garbage."
And really, the original poster needs to hope so. After all, if he can claim that he has been slandered by a poster here. I would imagine that Leica Camera could make a similar claim against him.
I believe he did call the camera "garbage."
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shimo-kitasnap
everything is temporary..
I fear the day when we can be prosecuted for what we express on teh interwebs.......Orwell's 1984 annyone?
The #1 problem in the world today is too many people take themselves too seriously and cannot stomach negative criticism. This gets worse when entire governments (they actually call themselves governments.....) get upset when outsiders criticize.
The #1 problem in the world today is too many people take themselves too seriously and cannot stomach negative criticism. This gets worse when entire governments (they actually call themselves governments.....) get upset when outsiders criticize.
Ara Ghajanian
Established
It's true, my labeling of the post is confrontational, but not towards other members. I want to get Leica's attention. I was born and raised in a nation whose premise is that all voices are equal and should be heard. I know it's an antiquated concept, but I like to still exercise it. I want Leica to hear our voices and produce a better camera. Maybe there is someone at Leica who is appointed to check these forums for customer feedback. Maybe my post and others will inspire them to work a little harder to produce a viable followup camera. At which point I will use the money I earn from producing my "garbage" to buy one.
Another note: I used this forum extensively for research on this camera and yes, these points were made before, but I stubbornly decided to take a chance and see for myself. My mistake. The sad thing is that these comments have been made since the release of this camera and all Leica could offer us was an overpriced upgrade package which doesn't address any of these issues. Moreover, as far as I can tell, no one has actually received this upgrade (correct me if I'm wrong).
The funny thing is that if we all took the opinion of the M8 being "good enough", then Leica would just produce it for the next 50 years. I don't know about the rest of you, but I have to sell a lot of "garbage" to make $5500.
Another note: I used this forum extensively for research on this camera and yes, these points were made before, but I stubbornly decided to take a chance and see for myself. My mistake. The sad thing is that these comments have been made since the release of this camera and all Leica could offer us was an overpriced upgrade package which doesn't address any of these issues. Moreover, as far as I can tell, no one has actually received this upgrade (correct me if I'm wrong).
The funny thing is that if we all took the opinion of the M8 being "good enough", then Leica would just produce it for the next 50 years. I don't know about the rest of you, but I have to sell a lot of "garbage" to make $5500.
Tony C.
Established
A word of advice: whether it's a corporation, your wife, a child, a friend, or a co-worker, when you want someone to hear your voice, it's always a good idea to moderate it.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
You don't have to shout to get Leica's attention. I had a conversation with Mr. Daniel last week and listened to his presentation, and the forums are intensively read in Solms.
jan normandale
Film is the other way
This hyperbolic style of thread is one of the reason's I'm not around RFF much these days. It's exceptionally personal and it's redundant. I'm not a Leica fan nor a supporter however I can point to several sources of excellent photographs from M8 users. Throwing rocks at anything is easy.
As "webs meister"/Fred pointed out.. "nothing new here, time to move on" but it continues relentlessly.
As "webs meister"/Fred pointed out.. "nothing new here, time to move on" but it continues relentlessly.
kbg32
neo-romanticist
I can agree that the M8 is not for everyone. It is a frustrating camera to use at times. But it is a camera, like any film Leica before, that does force you to think about what you are doing. If you want something that will produce right out of the box, the M8 is not for you. I would suggest a good P&S. If you're the type of person who knows what they want, takes the time to see, and takes the time to process your files correctly (meaning shooting RAW), the M8 is better than anything out there. The files just continue to blow me away in terms of color, sharpness, and dymanic range.
I shoot a lot for a well known stock agency, and their tech guys always comment that files from this camera are some of the best they have ever seen.
I shoot a lot for a well known stock agency, and their tech guys always comment that files from this camera are some of the best they have ever seen.
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