retinax
Well-known
What do you mean by that? The human rights situation in China is worse than in the US, so no "social warrior"-dom is appropriate here?
Would you mind spelling out for us what difference a murder victim's criminal record makes in your opinion?
Huss
Veteran
And yet just yesterday:
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/05/us/buffalo-police-suspension-shoving-man-trnd/index.html
The initial police report was that he tripped and fell.
So not only did they assault the gentleman, but then faked the report.
And this is happening as people are protesting police brutality. And these actions by the police show why these protests are needed.
Huss
Veteran
Thank you Stephen.
This actually is one of the most important things happening in our lives, so to want to shut down the thread is akin to pretending everything is ok.
Huss
Veteran
And this is in Los Angeles
https://www.yahoo.com/news/videos-capture-l-police-violence-120029313.html
In recent days, the Police Commission and two City Council members have called on the department to review its use of force during the demonstrations. The department's tactics also have come under fire from business owners, who say responding officers have repeatedly opted to arrest nonviolent protesters instead of looters at various scenes across the city.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/videos-capture-l-police-violence-120029313.html
In recent days, the Police Commission and two City Council members have called on the department to review its use of force during the demonstrations. The department's tactics also have come under fire from business owners, who say responding officers have repeatedly opted to arrest nonviolent protesters instead of looters at various scenes across the city.
Ronald M
Veteran
When all said and done this will all trace to the large country in the far east. bribes to politicians of past administrations so they are soft, virus spread, wrecking economy, killing a decent man in plain sight like they had a get out of jail free card ,looting disguised as protesting, someone with large amounts of cash funding Antifa, one thing predictably sparks the next .
Wait for the investigations.
I should add the homeless in California and the people who take money from gangs to allow illegal immigration, mail in ballots, drug smuggling, human trafficking.
Got to get a new president so they can get back to business as usual.
Wait for the investigations.
I should add the homeless in California and the people who take money from gangs to allow illegal immigration, mail in ballots, drug smuggling, human trafficking.
Got to get a new president so they can get back to business as usual.
Benjamin Marks
Veteran
[deleted].
james.liam
Well-known
This part seems to elude those who are juiced up about vengeance and civil violence. "Someone else will pay for it anyway". Not.
Don't think the apologists here would be too keen if the Mob entered their homes. A friend in Santa Monica had to spend several nights patrolling his home perimeter with a .357 Magnum, eyeball-to-eyeball with SJW's who were vandalizing stores on his block and doing the same to neighboring homes.
Spot on, Ron.
Huss
Veteran
Not when they are already on the streets
https://www.usatoday.com/videos/new...s-head-injury-after-shoved-police/3155825001/
During a press briefing Friday, Cuomo played video of the incident, watching it wide-eyed before questioning the officers’ actions.
“You see that video and it disturbs your basic sense of decency and humanity,” Cuomo said.
“Why? Why? Why was that necessary? Where was the threat? It was an older gentleman. Where was the threat? And then you just walk by the person when you see blood coming from his head,” he said, describing the scene.
All this looting and damage is awful. But some here seem to ignore WHY all this has happened, the final straw that broke the camel's back.
There is no apologizing for criminal actions by looters. But all this is a result of police brutality that is STILL playing out all over this country. Looters are now taking advantage of it, and in many places (Los Angeles) it apparently is being allowed to happen as the police have decided to go after protestors instead of looters.
You need that damage to property to validate "enthusiastic" policing.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/videos-capture-l-police-violence-120029313.html
In recent days, the Police Commission and two City Council members have called on the department to review its use of force during the demonstrations. The department's tactics also have come under fire from business owners, who say responding officers have repeatedly opted to arrest nonviolent protesters instead of looters at various scenes across the city.
Vince Lupo
Whatever
Not that I want to wade too deeply into this conversation, and while I don't know all the ins and outs of business insurance (though I have been running my business for almost 25 years with business insurance), but I don't believe this is correct. The insurance industry says that your business is covered by riots (this may have been different in the past, but the industry is saying that you are covered now). This is from the Insurance Information Institute from June 3rd:
https://www.iii.org/insuranceindustryblog/faq-riots-and-business-insurance/
You mention CGL insurance - here again, I don't think that's the purpose of that particular kind of insurance (so in that case CGL wouldn't cover riots because it wouldn't fall under that category). CGL insurance covers you in case you (the business) do something that causes harm, not the other way round. So if in the course of operating my business I damage someone's property, or if my advertising causes injury, or if my employees are somehow negligent, that's what CGL insurance is for.
Have looters been entering private homes? Don`t you think that people can be sad / angry about the looting, but also understand the anger that is causing it? People are tired of the same thing happening time after time... peaceful protest does nothing. I would imagine if I was the one under a knee, or if I saw it (or something similar) constantly happening in my neighborhood simply because of skin color, I would be angry too. These issues are not easy issues...they are complex.
james.liam
Well-known
My dad and his brothers ended up in a Displaced Persons camp just outside Munich, Germany in early 1946. All their cousins and uncles and aunts and friends had been systematically gassed or shot, experimented on like lab rats and then murdered, or worked to death. Either way, just about everyone they knew were ashes spread out on the Polish countryside.
They didn't murder Germans, burn down Munich or its surrounding towns or kill the US military that had locked them behind barbed wire like criminals (courtesy of General Patton). And they were there for 5 years because despite what happened, no one would let them resettle. What they had experienced or seen in the decade befor,e had them screaming out at night from recurrent nightmares for the rest of their lives
There are ways to fix things and there are ways not to. There's a way to direct fury and anger toward a meaningful goal or let it destroy everyone and everything around you.
It's always a choice.
First of all, I'm sorry to hear about your family. That's horrible. War is horrible. May I ask how they directed their anger in a positive way? I'm not sure I could be a good person and play by other people's rules of what's right if that had happened to me.
I'm not saying rioting and looting is right. Only that I can understand why people are angry and why they might choose to say F it. And let's not forget that just because someone else has had it a lot worse, it does not mitigate the next person's bad experiences. People handle situations differently and not always in the best ways when angry, hurt, tired, hungry, poor, desperate, etc.
f.hayek
Well-known
My uncles helped my grandfather create a school for numerous orphans who’d straggle in. They also spent time trying to find any lost relatives. One uncle learned a trade. Classes and language schools were set up. My father and his brother would trade with other refugees and even Germans outside for things each needed. My dad somehow could not get himself to hate. The pain was his heavy personal burden of loss he carried alone and he just wasn’t made that way or perhaps life taught him the futility of hatred. He and my grandfather were better men than I could ever aspire to.
I do hope this horrible event forces a great deal of soul searching and reform. But people have to stop congregating in the tens of thousands or this lockdown will have been for naught.
I do hope this horrible event forces a great deal of soul searching and reform. But people have to stop congregating in the tens of thousands or this lockdown will have been for naught.
Huss
Veteran
Again you are mixing the looters with the protesters.
The protestors have a meaningful goal. To end police brutality by means of police reform. That is what they are protesting for.
None of this would have happened if George Floyd was not murdered by police. And all those before him.
So to bring it back to the original post, that Leica Store would still be in business if George Floyd was alive.
Rioting and looting are a form of protest...maybe not the ones that people like, but they are certainly protests.
f.hayek
Well-known
When looting and rioting is an act of protest and not a crime, the Rule of Law upon which civil society is based upon, evaporates. Look at Venezuela.
james.liam
Well-known
The demonstrators and thugs don't have alternating shifts so you can tell them apart. The same time about 20,000 were zigzagging streets in Manhattan to confuse cops, the mob was smashing windows and stealing along the route. Protestrs saw, they knew and seemed indifferent to the pillaging. Some seemed satisfied at the greater scope.
Lie with dogs, get fleas.
Huss
Veteran
You again are equating the demonstrators and thugs are one and the same.
Ok, let's cut to the chase.
If the police had not murdered George Floyd none of this would have happened.
This all happened because of police brutality.
james.liam
Well-known
Agreed. All true.
Sociopaths with badges are the problem, and they need to be purged. But more importantly, screened out before they're issued a badge & gun.
Now we have to deal with the inevitable flood of Covid that will come from the close proximity of masses of people.
sjones
Established
America and violence are so historically intertwined, almost every aspect of freedom we enjoy (at least conditionally) required some form of violence or civil disobedience. Independence: civil disobedience and violence; Emancipation: violence, tons of it; Labor rights (fair wages, child labor laws, weekends, eight-hour days): civil disobedience and a lot more violence than most Americans realize; Universal Suffrage: civil disobedience; Civil Rights: violence against demonstrators and civil disobediance (African Americans violated segregation laws).
And over the decades, let’s not forget all the innocent civilians we’ve killed overseas in the righteous cause of freedom and democracy.
But just as we are steeped in violence, so are we steeped in racism. The complexities and history of this are, of course, complicated, but the American identity, when defined, cannot be divorced from racism. And the devaluation of the black body is as prominent today as it was a century ago.
To be sure, America has witnessed watershed moments of progress, not the least of which include an African American president. However, these advancements occurred largely because of a political tug-a-war between two sociocultural factions that have remained divided since before the nation’s founding---this current polarization is actually centuries-old. These divisions can be loosely traced along geographic demarcations, with exceptions and fluctuations duly noted.
So while progress has been made, setbacks are still possible, as evidenced by the counter-reaction ascendency of our current president, who won not in spite of his blatant bigotry but because of it.
Yet, no matter which party occupies the White House, systemic racism has remained constant, and this month’s outburst reflects not months, not years, not decades, but centuries of abuse, marginalization, and dehumanization. If Jews in Germany had rioted violently in, say, 1936, would we be berating them; judging them?
“But that’s different…and you’re going Godwin all over us, and…” Really? We only think it’s different because we have hindsight of where the Nazi experiment ultimately led. Hitler joined the Nazi party nearly two decades before its military went into Poland. And yes, our president is a fascist; I say this in an academic sense, given my educational and occupational background in political theory and science.
And let’s not forget that when prominent African Americans tried to protests peacefully, our bigoted president called them “son-of-a-bitches.” So when people call for peaceful protests (not a bad thing) yet while also attempting to switch the narrative to looters, then we’re confronting a detractive process of silencing: Yes, demonstrate, but do so in a manner that can altogether be ignored. Meanwhile, SOME of these same people calling for genuflecting obedience remain silent or perhaps even supportive of that drone strike that just killed four Muslim children---but our security vindicates it, right?
A decade back, I recall writing about a dispute between a driver and a toll operator that escalated into a destructive riot reportedly involving roughly 10,000 people. That number might be high, but needless to say, significant unrest occurred disproportionate to the trigger. This occurred in southeast China. Now, I could have shamed the demonstrators for their self-destructive behavior, but I thought it might be, for analytical purposes, better to study the underlying social tensions that fueled the disturbance. After all, numerous other demonstrations, often equally volatile, were springing up across the country.
I would like to think that when people riot in this country, we should strive to address the root problem rather than just yell admonishments. I get it; I live just a few blocks south of Central Camera; I was in the midst of it, and it was unnerving. But if I would like to avoid future disorder, the best route is to grapple with factors inciting such social discontent. This is a remarkably difficult task given that a sizeable portion of white Americans actually believe they face more discrimination than their black compatriots. Reality has become an increasingly rare commodity in certain quarters.
But as long as racism and violence remain core characteristics of America, then expect more of the same---we have only ourselves to blame; that is, we reap what we sow.
Also, just to note, opposing racism isn’t the act of a social justice warrior or PC-virtue signaling-beta; it’s the act of a decent human. This isn’t politics, it’s fundamental morals.
Suggested Reads:
“How to Become Antiracist” by Ibram X Kendi
“We Were Eight Years In Power” by Ta-Nehisi Coates
“White Identity Politics” by Ashley Jardina
The Origins of Totalitarianism” by Hannah Arendt
Also, reread Trevor Noah’s words as posted by Keytarjunkie, or track down the video clip.
And if you haven’t already, give photographer Gordon Parks a look.
I’m out; circuitous debates aren’t my thing; and really, I advocate splitting up the United States, so you know where my hope stands. Have a fun weekend!
And over the decades, let’s not forget all the innocent civilians we’ve killed overseas in the righteous cause of freedom and democracy.
But just as we are steeped in violence, so are we steeped in racism. The complexities and history of this are, of course, complicated, but the American identity, when defined, cannot be divorced from racism. And the devaluation of the black body is as prominent today as it was a century ago.
To be sure, America has witnessed watershed moments of progress, not the least of which include an African American president. However, these advancements occurred largely because of a political tug-a-war between two sociocultural factions that have remained divided since before the nation’s founding---this current polarization is actually centuries-old. These divisions can be loosely traced along geographic demarcations, with exceptions and fluctuations duly noted.
So while progress has been made, setbacks are still possible, as evidenced by the counter-reaction ascendency of our current president, who won not in spite of his blatant bigotry but because of it.
Yet, no matter which party occupies the White House, systemic racism has remained constant, and this month’s outburst reflects not months, not years, not decades, but centuries of abuse, marginalization, and dehumanization. If Jews in Germany had rioted violently in, say, 1936, would we be berating them; judging them?
“But that’s different…and you’re going Godwin all over us, and…” Really? We only think it’s different because we have hindsight of where the Nazi experiment ultimately led. Hitler joined the Nazi party nearly two decades before its military went into Poland. And yes, our president is a fascist; I say this in an academic sense, given my educational and occupational background in political theory and science.
And let’s not forget that when prominent African Americans tried to protests peacefully, our bigoted president called them “son-of-a-bitches.” So when people call for peaceful protests (not a bad thing) yet while also attempting to switch the narrative to looters, then we’re confronting a detractive process of silencing: Yes, demonstrate, but do so in a manner that can altogether be ignored. Meanwhile, SOME of these same people calling for genuflecting obedience remain silent or perhaps even supportive of that drone strike that just killed four Muslim children---but our security vindicates it, right?
A decade back, I recall writing about a dispute between a driver and a toll operator that escalated into a destructive riot reportedly involving roughly 10,000 people. That number might be high, but needless to say, significant unrest occurred disproportionate to the trigger. This occurred in southeast China. Now, I could have shamed the demonstrators for their self-destructive behavior, but I thought it might be, for analytical purposes, better to study the underlying social tensions that fueled the disturbance. After all, numerous other demonstrations, often equally volatile, were springing up across the country.
I would like to think that when people riot in this country, we should strive to address the root problem rather than just yell admonishments. I get it; I live just a few blocks south of Central Camera; I was in the midst of it, and it was unnerving. But if I would like to avoid future disorder, the best route is to grapple with factors inciting such social discontent. This is a remarkably difficult task given that a sizeable portion of white Americans actually believe they face more discrimination than their black compatriots. Reality has become an increasingly rare commodity in certain quarters.
But as long as racism and violence remain core characteristics of America, then expect more of the same---we have only ourselves to blame; that is, we reap what we sow.
Also, just to note, opposing racism isn’t the act of a social justice warrior or PC-virtue signaling-beta; it’s the act of a decent human. This isn’t politics, it’s fundamental morals.
Suggested Reads:
“How to Become Antiracist” by Ibram X Kendi
“We Were Eight Years In Power” by Ta-Nehisi Coates
“White Identity Politics” by Ashley Jardina
The Origins of Totalitarianism” by Hannah Arendt
Also, reread Trevor Noah’s words as posted by Keytarjunkie, or track down the video clip.
And if you haven’t already, give photographer Gordon Parks a look.
I’m out; circuitous debates aren’t my thing; and really, I advocate splitting up the United States, so you know where my hope stands. Have a fun weekend!