Pickett Wilson
Veteran
L39, will you be able to afford a roll of film to put in your Leica II in 10 years? As perplexing a problem as whether I can get battery for a Canon then.
ampguy
Veteran
batteries are easy
batteries are easy
You can make your own power supplies, and even charge them off of the grid.
What keeps me awake at night is if Costco stops developing and scanning C41.
batteries are easy
You can make your own power supplies, and even charge them off of the grid.
What keeps me awake at night is if Costco stops developing and scanning C41.
M
M like Leica M6
Guest
There are some more for me:
First, there is the crop factor. I have lenses in 21, 35, 50, 100 and 135mm, and I don't want to convert them into 28, 46, 66.5, 133 and 180mm.
Second and more important, a lousy 10 MP sensor is definitely out of date for a premium brand and premium price camera in 2009. Samsung builds such sensors into cheap camera phones, and they don't even need an IR filter
For comparison, have a look at photos from an M8.2 (let's say 100 ISO) and an EOS 5D Mark2 (let's say 1000 ISO) - it's like jumping from a 400 ASA 35mm film into medium format with a 100 ASA film. Canon must have made a trade: twice the MP, but at the expense of noise... significantly less than an M8.2, even at much higher ISO settings. To put it in a nutshell: Leica does not exploit its market niche. Many people will buy a digital Leica M if they can buy one with a better and bigger sensor. I am one of those potential customers. In fact, when the first rumours about the M8 were heard, I almost ordered one in advance, but when I heard the details I stopped thinking about it. That was 2 years ago, and they still use the sensor that was outdated in 2007.
We all know speed is not a home game for Leica. Recently I read that Leica's product cycle is synchronized with continental drift.
But if Leica wants to overcome the crisis, they just have to speed up and build a camera body that more customers would buy.
g12
Too much stuff
It's not a computer, it's a camera!
Pickett Wilson
Veteran
I feel sorry for Leica and would not want to be in their shoes. Enthusiasts want them to be innovative again, to regain the glory they enjoyed in the pre-slr days. To produce a digital camera that lives up to the Leica name. But it better look and feel like an M3, have only analog controls, use even 50 year old lenses without a crop factor, have a FF, low noise sensor and, oh yeah, how about an absolutely silent digital shutter that we cock with a conventianal advance lever and a reversable LCD so we won't be tempted to check a histogram while shooting.
I just don't believe we'll see a FF sensor in an M shaped body. Why spend that kind of R&D to stuff a FF sensor in an M when it would be better spent in other areas, and when Canon is selling a 21mp, FF, low noise, high ISO camera with video for $2,500 and can produce more of them in an hour than they can produce in a year and actually sell them.
Their market, as long as it exists, is primarily the boutique market for film cameras and Leica appears in the latest videos that have been posted to achknowledge that.
I just don't believe we'll see a FF sensor in an M shaped body. Why spend that kind of R&D to stuff a FF sensor in an M when it would be better spent in other areas, and when Canon is selling a 21mp, FF, low noise, high ISO camera with video for $2,500 and can produce more of them in an hour than they can produce in a year and actually sell them.
Their market, as long as it exists, is primarily the boutique market for film cameras and Leica appears in the latest videos that have been posted to achknowledge that.
TomN
Established
I was talking to a dealer here in Oz a month or two ago about a D-Lux 4 among other things. He asked if I could wait until the M9 was released and assured me that it was real and that he had information about it! It was full frame with a price of around AUD$15 000 (Leica M8.2 is around AUD$10 000). I have bought a bit of gear from these guys and they are well respected here in Oz. He had no reason to lead me up the garden path, in fact as I mentioned, I was looking at purchasing a D-Lux 4 at the time.
Adrian Nasti
Adrian N
I also was told by a Sydney dealer that the M9 is not pie in the sky stuff..
mani
Well-known
I find it interesting that this was your response to Jaap's price estimate, as he was in fact referring to the only price 'information' that was on the forum site that you supposedly quoted in your thread title. The part about price being the same as the M8.2, I assume was just wishful thinking then?
Pretty much sums up all of these types of thread, really...
Harry Lime
Practitioner
M8 or M9, Leica needs to get their prices in line with the rest of the market.
The simple fact is that the M8.2 is way overpriced for what it is and that is the main reason why it isn't selling. My dealer saw M8 sales nose dive after the last few price increases. The arrival of the D700 didn't help either.
Even of the M9 is fullframe Leica needs to figure out a way to lower prices or start offering a tiered product line. FF and 14-18MP would help to justify the cost, but it still is quite a stretch.
Pickett Wilson
Veteran
If they are only selling a couple of hundred cameras a month, they can't reduce their prices and stay in business. I'm not sure reducing the prices would actually increase sales in the RF market, anyway...not the price reduction it would actually take to sell a significant number of the cameras.
dfoo
Well-known
...
Second and more important, a lousy 10 MP sensor is definitely out of date for a premium brand and premium price camera in 2009. Samsung builds such sensors into cheap camera phones, and they don't even need an IR filter
...
First, I don't have an M8, but I do have a 5D that I never use. Why? Simply put, I hate it. I hate the form factor. I hate the ergnomics. I hate the viewfinder (compared with a rangefinder). I hate the autofocus lenses. I hate the lenses too, they are too big! I hate the weight of the camera. And last, but not least, I hate the mirror slap.
I want an M8. I would prefer no-crop, and I'd prefer a better sensor. But I don't want an SLR, no matter how great the IQ. I want a rangefinder.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Yes, Leica is vastly overpriced compared to all other DRFs.....
If a customer can switch from an M8 to a DSLR in his buying decision just like that he would only have ended up in the M8 complaints threads.Pickett Wilson
Veteran
dfoo, and yet you list one Leica and three slr's among your equipment.
Seriously, I've never much cared about the "form factor" of the equipment. I've never lost a photo because of the mirror slap. The holy grail of Leica lenses seem to be the Noctilux, a huge, heavy lens.
I own several Leicas which I enjoy using, and a bunch of Leica lenses. But I shoot mostly with an SLR. Different strokes.
Seriously, I've never much cared about the "form factor" of the equipment. I've never lost a photo because of the mirror slap. The holy grail of Leica lenses seem to be the Noctilux, a huge, heavy lens.
I own several Leicas which I enjoy using, and a bunch of Leica lenses. But I shoot mostly with an SLR. Different strokes.
Ben Z
Veteran
I think Dr. Kaufmann should send a delegation of Leica marketing execs to Switzerland to visit with their counterparts in the watchmaking industry. Somehow companies like Patek Philippe, Vacheron-Constantin, and Audemars-Piguet (to name just three) can sell a stainless-steel wristwatch for $12,000 that doesn't even have the date, has to be wound by hand, and at best is accurate to a few seconds a day vs a few seconds a month for any $10 quartz watch, and anybody would be laughed off a watch forum for suggesting that they are "overpriced for what they are" and the company "needs to get their prices in line with the rest of the market". Those companies are hurting in this economy, but they're not going into panic mode and slashing prices or re-branding Casio G-Shocks. Leica is missing some strategic element in the marketing of their image.
Harry Lime
Practitioner
Totally different market and product. The M8 is not an accessory or piece of jewelry, although a lot of people treat it as such. It is a tool.
Also any digital camera has an expiration date and at some point the market will see it as obsolete and therefore worthless. How much would you be willing to pay for a 5 year old PC or Mac?
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Clark Van Orden
Member
Not bloody likely!
Ben Z
Veteran
I have both an M8 and a 5D. I agree 100% with you on most of the negatives of the 5D (or any SLR). I most definitely don't hate it though. The M8 has disadvantages of its own, such as the limited close-up and telephoto capability unless using a Visoflex (which basically makes it as clunky as the 5D), and the lack of a true zoom. All tools have their limits, plusses and minuses.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Strange comparison! These exclusive watches are fashion/success statements for the well heeled ... so you're happy for Leica to continue down this path obviously if it means financial viability?
I'd prefer to see them get into bed with an Asian manufacturer who can produce their cameras for them allowing an economically sound pricing structure based on selling it in profitable numbers at a reachable price for the average consumer ... and some technology based around the future and not the past!
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Steve Ash
Established
But most likely you lost a lot of photos because of the "form factor" of your dslr when it stayed home.
Regards
Steve
Steve Ash
Established
Second and more important, a lousy 10 MP sensor is definitely out of date for a premium brand and premium price camera in 2009. Samsung builds such sensors into cheap camera phones, and they don't even need an IR filter
To put it in a nutshell: Leica does not exploit its market niche. Many people will buy a digital Leica M if they can buy one with a better and bigger sensor. I am one of those potential customers. .
To put it in a nutshell from my point of view: This sensor you are complaining about is outperforming your film M already.
Regards
Steve