Neopan 1600: Status?

[clayne]

In losing Neopan 1600 a unique tonality and grain pattern, with an associated specific texture, has been lost and that does matter.

Marty

Yeah sure, we know. However what's more important is the loss of a high speed black and white film. That leaves us 2 other mainstream high speed emulsions:

P3200TMZ and D3200.

TMZ is more than capable if you know what you're doing. Unfortunately it's a bit on the expensive side and has an undeserved bad-rap for excessive grain. In reality, typical film scanners treat it like **** - at heart, the film is great. I'm pretty bummed out about 1600PR, as I love shooting it, but at the same time I have 100s of rolls so I'm not sweating bullets. But don't let that be misunderstood - the loss is a real loss. However, it's not the end of the world - we just have to adapt, yet again. The people who pick up their ball and go home because their favorite film got discontinued need to realize that in order to survive shooting film, you've got to find workarounds, or do the smart thing: diversify the emulsions you're attached to.

Go wild and crazy: pick up a 4x5 and make goat portraits. But by all means, be committed to the long haul and keep on shooting.

TMZ@3200, XTOL, Ilford MGIV RC, Dektol, Selenium:


Alan Dejecacion by kediwah, on Flickr


Yve Fontilea by kediwah, on Flickr

 

[Mister E]

TMZ just looks nothing like PR1600. On top of that Fuji's films scan so much better.

 

[clayne]

Nate, I'm pretty well versed in how 1600PR looks. Obviously it has a different curve than TMZ. However, the point is that one can get comparable high quality results from other high speed black and white films.

There's nothing so absolutely special about Neopan 1600 that it absolutely requires the use of that specific film. The same could not be said for something like Tri-X - which has a very specific look.

Also, as far as scanners go - they accentuate grain beyond a film's normal look - to the point that people have started believing that scanners represent a film's true look, when in reality they don't.

 

[damien.murphy]

Neopan 400 was discontinued only in 120. Neopan 400 Pushed to 1600 isn't that much different that Neopan 1600 @ 1600.

I think Fuji's last film introduction was in something like 2007 with RXP/Provia 400X. Which has been a revolutionary film. It's great, but that's it. I don't think they'll be introducing/re-introducing anything else. It looks like they're slimming down as much as possible.

Big difference between slimming down, and appearing like you are almost exiting the market. Of the film market, I imagine the b&w negative market is the most stable, with the basics needed to compete being a good 100, 400 and 1600 iso film in roll films. I thought Fuji's trinity of Acros and the two Neopans catered to this perfectly, and really wonder what they're up to by withdrawing Neopan 1600 hot on the tails of Neopan 400.

By the way, I'm aware that Neopan 400 was only withdrawn in 120, but if you have been reading of the discontinuation of Legacy Pro 400 at Freestyle, it makes you wonder if Neopan 400 in 35mm is next.

I really hope this is just Fuji re-gearing to serve the film market more competitively, but their pr seems woeful, given the spirals of panic among users emanating from their actions with Neopan 1600 and 400.

 

[jonmanjiro]

Jon, can you email Fuji back and tell them that they do a horrible job of keeping their customers informed and ask what other films have silently been discontinued?

Finally got around to doing this. I'll post the response here.

 

[Keith]

Sometimes I think that a particular film disappears as soon as the manufacturer sees digital potentially filling it's roll. Colour film is pretty light on these days IMO because, lets face it, digital does colour very well.

A lot of digital cameras, (even the M9 :angel🙂 now have sensors that can virtually give noise free images at 1600 ISO and beyond and there's plenty of black and white conversion software out there for those that want it. Fuji, because of this, probably just assumed that there's a limited market for this film in future so why not axe it now!

Hey ... look on the bright side ... maybe there'll be a 1600 Presto setting on the X100! 😛

 

[clayne]

Colour film is pretty light on these days IMO because, lets face it, digital does colour very well.

As does film.

Latitude, feel, fidelity to real world color, skin tones, etc. That's not to say that digital sucks for color, but I don't see it blowing the doors off of color film. Besides we're still implicitly talking about 135, whereas 120, 4x5, 8x10 are a whole different level.

It's not really the medium of digital itself that bothers the most (of course it still bothers me), but all the bull**** that it pumps out daily.

"I want my pictures now! now, now, now!"

 

[Keith]

As does film.

Latitude, feel, fidelity to real world color, skin tones, etc. That's not to say that digital sucks for color, but I don't see it blowing the doors off of color film. Besides we're still implicitly talking about 135, whereas 120, 4x5, 8x10 are a whole different level.

It's not really the medium of digital itself that bothers the most (of course it still bothers me), but all the bull**** that it pumps out daily.

"I want my pictures now! now, now, now!"

But it doesn't need to blow the doors off film to replace it ... we're living in a world of diminishing standards IMO and this is just another example!

 

[maddoc]

Hey ... look on the bright side ... maybe there'll be a 1600 Presto setting on the X100! 😛

... can I mount my old lenses (M, LTM and with adapter S-mount) on the X100 ? 😉

 

[Keith]

... can I mount my old lenses (M, LTM and with adapter S-mount) on the X100 ? 😉

Possibly Gabor ... do you own a hacksaw? 😀

 

[jonmanjiro]

Sometimes I think that a particular film disappears as soon as the manufacturer sees digital potentially filling it's roll. 😛

As much as I hate to say it, its probably more like the Fujifilm accountants looked at their *sales results* and decided to cut their losses by chopping unprofitable products. Lets face it, in the overall scheme of things, film shooters are a dying breed, and that applies even more so for B&W fast film shooters.

 

[Roger Hicks]

It's important to look at the reasons why a given film is discontinued.

1 The manufacturer thinks they've replaced it, cf Fuji RF/RFP and Velvia. I vastly preferred RF/RFP.

2 Environmentally unfriendly ingredients, such as cadmium in Super-XX.

3 Company goes out of business (Agfa)

4 Ingredients become unavailable (Foma 200, though this is apparently about to be remedied with a new supplier).

5 People aren't buying enough of the product.

As 1, 2 and 3 don't apply here, I'd be willing to bet that #5 is the situation with Neopan 1600. After all, why else would they discontinue it? Sheer spite? Sure, they could have been more upfront about it, but my guess is that the decision was made by an accountant who didn't realize that there are people who would 'rather fight than switch', to quote to old cigarette ad.

Incidentally, the maximum true ISO of Neopan 1600 is less than 1/3 stop more than the maximum true ISO of HP5 Plus. As an Ilford friend said once, "Think of it [Neopan 1600] as a very good ISO 400 film.

Cheers.

R.

 

[damien.murphy]

For that matter, I wonder how many of us there are to sustain the big three...

I believe with b&w the market is quite stable with a more committed user base, and that lomography is helping keep colour film sales buoyant.

At its worst, I see colour film falling away entirely, but can not say the same for b&w which I see enduring for a long time.

Here in Ireland, there's a bit of a film revolution going on, with most enthusiast photographers shooting film also.

 

[btgc]

Hey ... look on the bright side ... maybe there'll be a 1600 Presto setting on the X100! 😛

No matter how good digital captures is...it's digital. Requires special archiving, can not be directly printed in darkroom. Well, not that it's what industry cares about.

 

[Roger Hicks]

I believe with b&w the market is quite stable with a more committed user base, and that lomography is helping keep colour film sales buoyant.

At its worst, I see colour film falling away entirely, but can not say the same for b&w which I see enduring for a long time.

Here in Ireland, there's a bit of a film revolution going on, with most enthusiast photographers shooting film also.

Not the impression I got at photokina (and obviously I was asking around). The decline has slowed dramatically for some products, but equally, according to a manufacturer's representative, one colour film coating line is likely to close on a few years. Don't worry too much, though: it's in Iran.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Keith]

No matter how good digital captures is...it's digital. Requires special archiving, can not be directly printed in darkroom. Well, not that it's what industry cares about.

http://www.de-vere.com/

 

[damien.murphy]

It's important, though, to look at the reasons why a given film is discontinued.

1 The manufacturer thinks they've replaced it, cf Fuji RF/RFP and Velvia. I vastly preferred RF/RFP.

2 Environmentally unfriendly ingredients, such as cadmium in Super-XX.

3 Company goes out of business (Agfa)

4 Ingredients become unavailable (Foma 200, though this is apparently about to be remedied with a new supplier).

5 People aren't buying enough of the product.

I'd be willing to bet that #5 is the situation here. After all, why else would they discontinue it? Sheer spite? Sure, they could have been more upfront about it, but my guess is that the decision was made by an accountant who didn't realize that there are people who would 'rather fight than switch', to quote to old cigarette ad.

Incidentally, the maximum true ISO of Neopan 1600 is less than 1/3 stop more than the maximum true ISO of HP5 Plus. As an Ilford friend said once, "Think of it [Neopan 1600] as a very good ISO 400 film.

Cheers.

R.

Roger,

Even if you're right with lack of demand being the reason behind Neopans decline, I would argue that any company serious about being a top player in the b&w film market needs to have an EI 1600 film in their catalogue, for the same reason that any other company needs to have high-end products in their portfolio.

It signals intent, and is good pr in laying out the companys stall and capabilities, just like camera companies designing f1 lenses. This is what the bean-counters don't understand.

Sure they may save a few bucks by removing lines that do not pay their way, but in doing so, there is often a knock-on effect whereby sales in other areas decline as people who may have bought into Fuji, now decide to move to a more overtly committed manufacturer.

Ilford being the case in point, whereby a portion of Ilfords business is purely on the basis of it being perceived as a committed player who are more than likely not going to discontinue your favourite emulsion.

 

[clayne]

http://www.de-vere.com/

Yes, I'm sure most are aware it can be done, technically. But dude, some of us *want to not have electronics in our faces on a 24/7 basis and shoot things relatively naturally*. Why is it that there's always got to be someone pushing digital in my face for whatever reason while I respect their decision to shoot digital?

Seriously, it's like Christian missionaries and trying to convert people. Let it ****ing go already.

 

[maddoc]

As much as I hate to say it, its probably more like the Fujifilm accountants looked at their *sales results* and decided to cut their losses by chopping unprofitable products. Lets face it, in the overall scheme of things, film shooters are a dying breed, and that applies even more so for B&W fast film shooters.

.. maybe they confused "sales results" with まんが... 🙄😉

 

[Mister E]

Are you guys serious? A top player in the film market? I love film, but that's like saying a top player in the vinyl record market or newspaper market or even rotary telephone market. All of these are dying technologies. I'm sure film will be available for years and years, I'd like to see it turn into an operation where smaller, per order batches are profitable, but I'm sure if that were possible Fuji/Kodak would already be looking at it.

I wonder if Fuji discontinues the bulk of their film business if a company like Cosina would branch out to pick up the slack. You can't really sell film cameras with little film supply. I understand the business decision, I'm not mad about it, but it would have been better if Fuji announced it was pending, said something like to keep selling this film we need to sell so many 10's of thousands of rolls this year.

In the end as long as Neopan 400 exists all my black and white needs are met.