Neopan 1600: Status?

[Keith]

Yes, I'm sure most are aware it can be done, technically. But dude, some of us *want to not have electronics in our faces on a 24/7 basis and shoot things relatively naturally*. Why is it that there's always got to be someone pushing digital in my face for whatever reason while I respect their decision to shoot digital?

Seriously, it's like Christian missionaries and trying to convert people. Let it ****ing go already.

Hey ... I'm quite happy with my 1933 Leica ll shooting 100 ISO film at the moment ... who needs digital?

😀

 

[damien.murphy]

Not the impression I got at photokina (and obviously I was asking around). The decline has slowed dramatically for some products, but equally, according to a manufacturer's representative, one colour film coating line is likely to close on a few years. Don't worry too much, though: it's in Iran.

Cheers,

R.

I think the main thing is that the ship has stopped sinking, sure there may be a bit of water that needs to be continued to be bailed out before everything is on an even keel again, but things are looking positive.

I think colour film is the big risky prospect now, and really wish someone would get off their ass and realise there's a whole market of people out there who switched to digital prematurely, when in all reality all they've ever wanted was a handful of 6x4 prints.

Massive potential to remarket film to certain segments, I feel, although it may only be a short term (5- 15 year boost) until the market becomes more saturated with computer and digital savvy customers, ie more young-uns and less old-uns 🙂

 

[sevo]

I'd be willing to bet that #5 is the situation here. After all, why else would they discontinue it?

Film above ASA 400 has always been a niche product, and many types have been killed without a direct replacement, even in film's heydays. Most hasn't even at its peak time been available in sizes above 135 where its disadvantages aren't quite as glaringly obvious. In a digital world, there are less reasons for fast film than ever. The photoshopped results from any used $200 with kit lens D50 will absolutely wipe the floor with a MP with $20000 worth of lenses, provided that you abuse the latter with pushed highest sensitivity film - professionally (and even for the majority of artistic applications) ultra-fast film is dead. And the niche uses of fast film as utility for night-shooting obnoxiously film-only amateurs or as a pictorialist's grain filter is quite unlikely to sell enough to keep three brands afloat.

Sevo

 

[Keith]

Are you guys serious? A top player in the film market? I love film, but that's like saying a top player in the vinyl record market or newspaper market or even rotary telephone market. All of these are dying technologies. I'm sure film will be available for years and years, I'd like to see it turn into an operation where smaller, per order batches are profitable, but I'm sure if that were possible Fuji/Kodak would already be looking at it.

I wonder if Fuji discontinues the bulk of their film business if a company like Cosina would branch out to pick up the slack. You can't really sell film cameras with little film supply. I understand the business decision, I'm not mad about it, but it would have been better if Fuji announced it was pending, said something like to keep selling this film we need to sell so many 10's of thousands of rolls this year.

In the end as long as Neopan 400 exists all my black and white needs are met.

It's not the end of the world I agree!

There are three 400 films on the market that push very well to 1600 IMO and I remember Gabor posting some stunning images recently with Delta pulled to 1600!

 

[damien.murphy]

Yes, I'm sure most are aware it can be done, technically. But dude, some of us *want to not have electronics in our faces on a 24/7 basis and shoot things relatively naturally*. Why is it that there's always got to be someone pushing digital in my face for whatever reason while I respect their decision to shoot digital?

Seriously, it's like Christian missionaries and trying to convert people. Let it ****ing go already.

I think we'll see more digital-analogue integration, and for as long as there remains a gulf between large format quality and digital, I can see many people making large format negatives from digital files so as to wet-print. There is a lot of this in the alternative-processes field of photography.

 

[jonmanjiro]

Are you guys serious? A top player in the film market? I love film, but that's like saying a top player in the vinyl record market or newspaper market or even rotary telephone market. All of these are dying technologies. I'm sure film will be available for years and years, I'd like to see it turn into an operation where smaller, per order batches are profitable, but I'm sure if that were possible Fuji/Kodak would already be looking at it.

I wonder if Fuji discontinues the bulk of their film business if a company like Cosina would branch out to pick up the slack. You can't really sell film cameras with little film supply. I understand the business decision, I'm not mad about it, but it would have been better if Fuji announced it was pending, said something like to keep selling this film we need to sell so many 10's of thousands of rolls this year.

In the end as long as Neopan 400 exists all my black and white needs are met.

You really think Fujifilm is a film company?

Taken from the Japanese wikipedia page on Fujifilm:

2009年1月6日の読売新聞によると、写真フィルム部門の売上高は会社全体の売上高の5%にも満たないという。

Translation -> According to an article in the 6th January 2009 edition of the Yomiuri Shinbun newspaper, total sales of the photographic film department made up less than 5% of Fujifilm's total sales.

😱

 

[clayne]

Are you guys serious? A top player in the film market? I love film, but that's like saying a top player in the vinyl record market or newspaper market or even rotary telephone market. All of these are dying technologies. I'm sure film will be available for years and years, I'd like to see it turn into an operation where smaller, per order batches are profitable, but I'm sure if that were possible Fuji/Kodak would already be looking at it.

Kodak/Fuji are already looking into it. In fact it's absolutely known that Kodak has been in the process of restructuring their process line to be more demand base and execute on smaller orders to reduce spoilage and excess inventory.

Let it also be known that the FPEG (Film, Photofinishing and Entertainment Group) group of Kodak is their *most profitable* group - and has been for years now. Obviously there's a huge link here to cinematic film, but the point is it's still a net profitable product.

In the end as long as Neopan 400 exists all my black and white needs are met.

I see this attitude a lot during discontinuations, something along the lines of "As long as my film is made then I'm all good!" In reality, and I'm sure you'll agree here, losing any film sucks - even if you don't use it.

If someone told me I could only shoot 400PR for the rest of my life, while I could deal, I wouldn't be happy about it - and I think it's a stellar film.

 

[btgc]

http://www.de-vere.com/

Thanks, weren't aware of this. Let me procede - with certain investments any process can be replaced. That's what we see in IT - every few years huge amounts of money is trashed to do same things using different platform or technology. Question is if old technology, artificially withdrawn, isn't more effective and cheaper. But alas, progress is asking offering, we are still living in ancient times just gods look different.

When photography split into F and D branches, we became sailors between Scilla and Haribda, scanners and CCD's. That represents well nature of human beings, always split - between hopes and needs, wishes and possibilities.

 

[Roger Hicks]

I think the main thing is that the ship has stopped sinking, sure there may be a bit of water that needs to be continued to be bailed out before everything is on an even keel again, but things are looking positive.

I think colour film is the big risky prospect now, and really wish someone would get off their ass and realise there's a whole market of people out there who switched to digital prematurely, when in all reality all they've ever wanted was a handful of 6x4 prints.

Massive potential to remarket film to certain segments, I feel, although it may only be a short term (5- 15 year boost) until the market becomes more saturated with computer and digital savvy customers, ie more young-uns and less old-uns 🙂

Dear Damien,

Beautifully put!

Cheers,

R

 

[Roger Hicks]

Film above ASA 400 has always been a niche product, and many types have been killed without a direct replacement, even in film's heydays. Most hasn't even at its peak time been available in sizes above 135 where its disadvantages aren't quite as glaringly obvious. In a digital world, there are less reasons for fast film than ever. The photoshopped results from any used $200 with kit lens D50 will absolutely wipe the floor with a MP with $20000 worth of lenses, provided that you abuse the latter with pushed highest sensitivity film - professionally (and even for the majority of artistic applications) ultra-fast film is dead. And the niche uses of fast film as utility for night-shooting obnoxiously film-only amateurs or as a pictorialist's grain filter is quite unlikely to sell enough to keep three brands afloat.

Sevo

Dear Sevo,

Highlighted part: absolutely true: Ilford HPS and Kodak 2475/2485, for example -- though of course Royal-X Pan was only ever available in 120 and sheet film. Or in colour, Agfachrome 1000, Ferrania 100D and 640T, Konica (?) 3200.

On the other hand, I don't agree about DSLRs 'wiping the floor' with the MP. The film look really IS different, and (say) a C-Sonnar 1,5/50 or Noctilux does give a very different look from a kit lens.

Cheers,

R.

 

[clayne]

Most of the digital vs film nonsense comparisons are based on resolution which ignores other major aspects of silver halide. It's like the same thing on an on again: "My camera is sharper than your camera".

You'll see a similar thing with audio people and well.. basically anything that can be measured or benchmarked into some kind of directly comparable metric: my x is better than your y.

It's usually the non-doers who are hell-bent on the number comparisons.

 

[damien.murphy]

Are you guys serious? A top player in the film market? I love film, but that's like saying a top player in the vinyl record market or newspaper market or even rotary telephone market. All of these are dying technologies. I'm sure film will be available for years and years, I'd like to see it turn into an operation where smaller, per order batches are profitable, but I'm sure if that were possible Fuji/Kodak would already be looking at it.

I wonder if Fuji discontinues the bulk of their film business if a company like Cosina would branch out to pick up the slack. You can't really sell film cameras with little film supply. I understand the business decision, I'm not mad about it, but it would have been better if Fuji announced it was pending, said something like to keep selling this film we need to sell so many 10's of thousands of rolls this year.

In the end as long as Neopan 400 exists all my black and white needs are met.

Quite a defeatist mindset, Mister E. Film may be a niche market, but why don't you head over to APUG or the like, if you think its a dying one. Sure, the populist element of the market have evaporated, but that does not mean the market is dead.

Your argument that if Fuji/ Kodak have not found the answer that there is not one, is quite a naieve and pessimistic one. These companies may have access to more funds, but if they are saddled with unrealistic expectations or high fixed costs, then they may be ill-equipped to target a market that has changed so significantly as the film market. For these larger companies to compete effectively, many need to reach bottom and divest themselves of highly geared facilities that are no longer required. This is expensive, and makes these company far less mobile than a smaller company in the same market.

There are sound business models that remain in the film market (or at least the b&w film market), as seen by the reconstitution of Ilford and the salvage of much of Agfa via Adox & Foma. Just because the dinosaurs in the market may prove too immobile to grasp such opportunities, does not mean they are not there, nor that smaller less encumbered companies are not better equipped (by virtue of not being saddled by baggage of the likes of Fuji/ Kodak) to do so.

EDIT: Just noticed my tone may have seemed a little belligerent, and this is not the case. I just see potential in film 🙂

 

[Tim Gray]

But in a lot of ways ISO speeds don't make much difference to real world photography. In losing Neopan 1600 a unique tonality and grain pattern, with an associated specific texture, has been lost and that does matter.

No doubt. It is a real shame that Neopan 1600 is going away.

 

[B.J.Scharp]

Well, as said by others: Thanks for the heads up! I just ordered 40 rolls from Fujilab UK.
I've been meaning to experiment a bit more with this in Diafine (previous experiments in Rodinal didn't give me a lot compared to Neopan 400), so at least I'll have some for that. After they're gone, I'll see what's next.

 

[semilog]

And the niche uses of fast film as utility for night-shooting obnoxiously film-only amateurs or as a pictorialist's grain filter is quite unlikely to sell enough to keep three brands afloat.

Harsh, but more or less correct.

 

[sepiareverb]

But in a lot of ways ISO speeds don't make much difference to real world photography. In losing Neopan 1600 a unique tonality and grain pattern, with an associated specific texture, has been lost and that does matter.

Absolutely. B&W is all about tonality and grain, and losing this film is like losing 6H pencils. Sure we still have 4H, but it just isn't the same.

As much as I hate to say it, its probably more like the Fujifilm accountants looked at their *sales results* and decided to cut their losses by chopping unprofitable products. Lets face it, in the overall scheme of things, film shooters are a dying breed, and that applies even more so for B&W fast film shooters.

Most likely correct Jon. Fuji & Kodak are not in business for photography, they're in business for money.

I believe with b&w the market is quite stable with a more committed user base, and that lomography is helping keep colour film sales buoyant.

Stable isn't growth, and shareholders are only focussed on growth. Stable just isn't enough- and Fuji just cut the last product I buy from them.

It really is a shame, I just ran four rolls of Neopan 1600 tonight, and even looking at the films with a loupe the grain is just what I love about grain- textural without being dirty.

 

[Keith]

There will probaly be a minor, and I mean minor, backlash from potential X100 buyers over this. Fuji have gone to the trouble of creating a legacy design compact digital that harks back to the film age and then in the same breath have discontinued one of their all time great black and white film emulsions.

It would be a little like Leica completely abandoning film body production after the release of the digital M which in spite of initial suspicions they haven't actually done.

Not that I'm saying they won't! 😛

 

[jonmanjiro]

Finally got around to doing this. I'll post the response here.

So I asked Fujifilm whether any other films, including Neopan 400 in 35mm, were also on the chopping block, and got the reply below.

In short, Neopan 400 in 35mm will continue to be offered, and there's no plans to discontinue any other films. The link in the reply is to the announcement Fujifilm made back in early February.

ミッチェル ジョン　様


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[maddoc]

Jon, thanks for the update ! 🙂 Good to know that we don`t have to run out again soon to buy remaining, different film stock .....

 

[Mister E]

So I asked Fujifilm whether any other films, including Neopan 400 in 35mm, were also on the chopping block, and got the reply below.

In short, Neopan 400 in 35mm will continue to be offered, and there's no plans to discontinue any other films. The link in the reply is to the announcement Fujifilm made back in early February.

I mean can we trust that though? It says only that Neopan 1600 24 exposure rolls were being discontinued and said:

スーパープレスト1600　24枚撮　単品 36枚撮　単品

So why discontinue 24 exp rolls and tell us to shoot 36 exp rolls only a few months later to discontinue the film all together?