robert blu
quiet photographer
Fraser
Well-known
Not sure if I would bother with leica if it wasn't for the rf. take away the ccd sensor and the mechanical rangefinder in my m9 and I'm as well using my canon 6d with a prime lens same weight not much bigger.
rbelyell
Well-known
interesting point. theres a lot of sense in that last comment. but if they manage to keep some form of rf manual focus and add autofocus, that might make up for lack of ccd...
Monochrom
Well-known
Nice brave move.
Leica must move forward and leave behind the M system.
Hope they make a real fast and accurate AF with real high ISO capabilities.
Leica must move forward and leave behind the M system.
Hope they make a real fast and accurate AF with real high ISO capabilities.
craygc
Well-known
As a Sony 7II user I totally agree that in many circumstances the activate/stabilise time of the EVF is too long. However, even being a Leica film user, I still can't justify the price of digiLeicas but as my standard lens for fast work these days is a Leica 28mm I use an external VF in the hot shoe of the Sony.
willie_901
Veteran
Nice brave move.
Leica must move forward and leave behind the M system.
Hope they make a real fast and accurate AF with real high ISO capabilities.
The M240 has respectable analog signal-to-noise ratio (a.k.a high ISO capability) compared to current DSLR bodies. It's SNR may not be the best, but it is not a disadvantage by any metric. Leica has solved that problem.
There is no reason CMOSIS' contemporary CMOS sensor assemblies should a concern in terms of SNR and analog dynamic range.
CK Dexter Haven
Well-known
Really interesting news. Can't wait to see what it looks like. They're going 'modern' with the tech, but i wonder if they'll do the same with the aesthetics. They've done 'contemporary' in the past, with the R8/9.
Good move by Leica. They must recognize their Manual Rangefinder Audience is getting older and older, and i'm not sure they're generating enough consumers from within the millennials, so they have no choice.
Price is going to be critical. Sony is already doing this camera (with Zeiss), and at $3k and under. How much 'better' will Leica be able to convince us their version is capable of being? [Was that a sentence?]
Okay, wait — they say it can use manual focus lenses, but does it say anywhere that it will autofocus manual focus lenses? Did i miss this earlier in the thread? [Edit:] Never mind. I see now that that was only a question from another member.
Good move by Leica. They must recognize their Manual Rangefinder Audience is getting older and older, and i'm not sure they're generating enough consumers from within the millennials, so they have no choice.
Price is going to be critical. Sony is already doing this camera (with Zeiss), and at $3k and under. How much 'better' will Leica be able to convince us their version is capable of being? [Was that a sentence?]
Okay, wait — they say it can use manual focus lenses, but does it say anywhere that it will autofocus manual focus lenses? Did i miss this earlier in the thread? [Edit:] Never mind. I see now that that was only a question from another member.
They aren't going to leave behind the M. This is for people who don't want a M I would imagine. If Leica abandoned the M, Leica's core audience would flee. That won't be a good thing.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
I'm interested that you can be so certain about what Leica will and won't do moving forward.
Leica are a company trying to succeed in a very volatile market and I think you are over estimating their loyalty to a particular design and the people who want to maintain the status quo .... ie the M rangefinder. They will have a much better idea than anyone here at RFF as to what may happen if they ditch the design. I still believe that if they can successfully drop it they will at some stage in the near future.
Harry Lime
Practitioner
Unless the sensor was developed by Sony for Leica.
rbelyell
Well-known
the way i read it, joe is expressing an opinion, albeit different than yours, but an opinion nonetheless on what the future will hold. dont see any difference between what each of you has said, except youre on different sides of the fence.
lynnb
Veteran
I wonder if Leica has considered using eye-tracking focus such as used in the EOS Elan 7NE/EOS 7s. (Eye-tracking focus is not the same as focus that seeks out subjects' eyes and focuses on them - see info on the Elan). That might be just as fast and accurate as an optical rangefinder, and cheaper to make, allowing Leica to reduce price and maintain a fast, accurate focus system.
Harry Lime
Practitioner
Nice brave move.
Leica must move forward and leave behind the M system.
Hope they make a real fast and accurate AF with real high ISO capabilities.
Yes, they should rush forward and produce another also-ran mirrorless EVF AF camera and get annihilated in a price war with their Japanese competitors. I really look forward to shooting street photography with a strobing, time delayed EVF and being forced to center frame all of my shots with the AF. Brilliant strategy.
You can't shoot this fast with anything but a scale focused RF or small SLR with an optical viewfinder.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RM9KcYEYXs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60o8UHyiCS4
There isn't an EVF on the planet that operates at light speed nor is there an AF system that is faster than scale focusing, because you need to focus and reframe. AF has an advantage in low light, but action does slow down indoors, so the advantage is not so great.
That's he whole point of the M system and getting rid of those two features is about as smart as jumping on a bicycle without a seat.
If people want a Sony A7s they should go out an buy one with an M adapter. It would be a lot cheaper than a Leica version.
taemo
eat sleep shoot
I finally sold my Sony A7 after using it for over 18 months as I just couldn't stand shooting with an EVF all the time.
I could put an auxiliary VF on the top but on the A7 felt a little too high with that EVF hump.
If only Sony kept the same body stype as the NEX-6 or NEX-7 series.
Whoever first releases the following will get my money
A. Fuji X-Pro1 type of body
B. Full Frame sensor
C. Affordable price
Leica checks A & B
Fuji checks A & C
Sony checks B & C
YYV_146
Well-known
You can absolutely do that with an EVF camera. The longest lag by far in modern SLR cameras is the mirror clearance. And people seem to work with DSLRs for sports and action all the time.
EVF lag from something like the A7 isn't even on the same order of magnitude. This coupled with an electronic shutter system allows for extremely fast capturing of motion. I can use a manual lens and track a moving object through the frame of a EVF. How many photographers are capable of doing that with an optical rangefinder window?
And you're not limited to the center of frame at all. I can focus lock and then recompose multiple times with the same subject. I can also disengage the AF and shutter and use a wider lock area. Center-point is for DSLRs where only one or a few points are actually fully functional. With mirrorless bodies the entire sensor is AF-capable.
Ben Z
Veteran
Agreed (although I have an M240 and couldn't care less CCD vs CMOS). I originally got into Leicas because of their small footprint/weight and the optical rangefinder/viewfinder. The digital M cameras have grown in size and weight from their film forebearers while at the same time dSLRs have been shrinking. Take away the rangefinder and I have no reason to put up with Leica's prices, reliability issues, and remarkable long repair turnaround.
I really can't stomach EVFs but if I have to use one I'd put my Leica lenses on a Sony or Fuji for a fraction the cost of a Leica body, even if I had to do a little PP here and there, or accept a bit of performance loss in the edges with certain ultra-wide lenses.
Bille
Well-known
Have You looked at Dslr lenses recently?
They haven't kept it around for 80 years for nothing. It's been outdated for 50 years. I'm sorry you feel my opinion isn't valid and that I have to have hard evidence to support it, but this is the internet.
rbelyell
Well-known
tell me again why i cant 'scale focus' on a camera with auto focus capability? i thought i had been doing that, but i guess ive been wrong.
Lss
Well-known
Absolutely. If they have any business sense whatsoever, they will do it. (*) They might do it anyway and fail miserably, but I don't believe in that in the short term.
It would in any case be quite a feat to build enough customer base from existing and new users while leaving current M system owners holding their expensive and soon to be useless lenses. Therefore, a better bet is that Leica and their product lineup will evolve such that M (as an extended or at least supported mount) will remain part of what they do (at an applicable sensor size anyway). After all, it's unlikely that Leica will anytime soon be a true mass market product in a way we currently define it.
(*) This follows from the wording, no?