stiff68
Member
Millions of thanks, photogdave.
Seems I'd better give up Widelux.
I will study all the information you give me.
Graybeard
Longtime IIIf User
I have, and use, both a Horizon 202 and a Widelux F7. Both are reliable cameras and produce impressive results.
Both of these cameras are mechanical with a swinging lens turret. If dirt, debris, or other trash can find its way into the swing mechanism the turret will not operate smoothly and banding may occur. In order to keep these cameras in good operating condition keep them clean. it isn't a bad idea to keep them in a plastic food storage bag inside your camera bag. have the camera serviced at approriate intervals; this is sound practice for any precision instrument.
Some of the comments concerning the virtues of modern electrical/electronic panoramic camera wonders strike me as sophistry. When the Noblex turret becomes fouled with foreign matter, it too will not operate reliably.
When a mechanical camera requires service, it can usually be restored to good operating condition with a thorough cleaning. If a camera which relies on electrical or electronic components fails, hope that the original manufacturer can provide replacement parts - don't count on this given the short manufacturing cycles of modern electrical components. Cirkut (sp?) panoramic cameras from the 1920's are still in use today. What electrical device of that era is functional now? For that matter, are electronic components for the 1980's era electronically controlled35mm cameras available? So far as I know, Fuji, the source of the Xpan cameras, has exited the film camera business. Reflect on this before you spend $1500+ on a camera than may be unrepairable in five years. Do you have sufficient confidence in the staying power of Noblex that you can rely on them to provide essential parts in, say 2015? I'll wager that there will be someone to clean and lucricate my Widelux then.
I suggest buying a new Horizon from a dealer who will exchange/replace a problem camera should things go badly for you. There is very little panoramic photography that a Horizon cannot accomplish for you. I recently took my five year old (and not serviced) Horizon 202 to Europe and it behaved perfectly - even with my pulling bits of lint and film chips from the turret with tweezers. I ran twenty-five 36 exposure rolls through the camera with complete camera reliability.
My Widelux is to my Horizon as a Leica is to a Russian Leica copy - finely crafted, a joy to use, but not as tolerant of abuse.
I remain to be convinced that a plastic camera with an electric motor is, in any way, an advance over a well made mechanical panoramic camera. Your mileage may, of course, vary.
Both of these cameras are mechanical with a swinging lens turret. If dirt, debris, or other trash can find its way into the swing mechanism the turret will not operate smoothly and banding may occur. In order to keep these cameras in good operating condition keep them clean. it isn't a bad idea to keep them in a plastic food storage bag inside your camera bag. have the camera serviced at approriate intervals; this is sound practice for any precision instrument.
Some of the comments concerning the virtues of modern electrical/electronic panoramic camera wonders strike me as sophistry. When the Noblex turret becomes fouled with foreign matter, it too will not operate reliably.
When a mechanical camera requires service, it can usually be restored to good operating condition with a thorough cleaning. If a camera which relies on electrical or electronic components fails, hope that the original manufacturer can provide replacement parts - don't count on this given the short manufacturing cycles of modern electrical components. Cirkut (sp?) panoramic cameras from the 1920's are still in use today. What electrical device of that era is functional now? For that matter, are electronic components for the 1980's era electronically controlled35mm cameras available? So far as I know, Fuji, the source of the Xpan cameras, has exited the film camera business. Reflect on this before you spend $1500+ on a camera than may be unrepairable in five years. Do you have sufficient confidence in the staying power of Noblex that you can rely on them to provide essential parts in, say 2015? I'll wager that there will be someone to clean and lucricate my Widelux then.
I suggest buying a new Horizon from a dealer who will exchange/replace a problem camera should things go badly for you. There is very little panoramic photography that a Horizon cannot accomplish for you. I recently took my five year old (and not serviced) Horizon 202 to Europe and it behaved perfectly - even with my pulling bits of lint and film chips from the turret with tweezers. I ran twenty-five 36 exposure rolls through the camera with complete camera reliability.
My Widelux is to my Horizon as a Leica is to a Russian Leica copy - finely crafted, a joy to use, but not as tolerant of abuse.
I remain to be convinced that a plastic camera with an electric motor is, in any way, an advance over a well made mechanical panoramic camera. Your mileage may, of course, vary.
europanorama
Well-known
next year i can celebrate my 30th anniversary in rotapancamera. pls do not say its plastic! its metallic like older model but you dont see- its covered by wonderful design. i had horizon(endless amount of problems-mainly light leaks but we finally solved), i have horizon 202 and s3-pro. my repairman had to improve 202- that camera is now called perfect. i hope i am right. but most perfect of all is s3-pro despite the fact that they wrongly changed lens-design from 202 to s3-pro. the lens was/is not the problem but its position to get best possible depth of field(DOF) since the lens is fixed focus fixed to infinity. newer s3-pro and the other newer model have the lens at a "better" position. dont ask me when they changed this. the answer must come from kmz-zenit. there are one or two russian camera-forum. pls post its links.
3 option: a) closeup-lens b) change distance film-lens version 1) using dymotape(0.25mm)-glued to filmrails.
2) changing lens-position
wrong lens design of S3-pro results in unsharp fstop 16/compared to 202. see here:
comparisons fstop 16- horizon 202 versus newer s3-pro
http://www.pbase.com/europanorama/image/36197074
yes kmz-zenit did not like me finding this out. but its not up to us forcing the producers doing it right. its up to them analyzing what is wrong. and doing the right things. i could not see any lens-quality-improvements 202-s3-pro. improvements means better resolution(we dont need 202-lens is razorsharp). if in fact resolution would have been improved this would have resulted in a smaller circle of confusion(COC). am i right or is it vice-versa. this could explain the problem with unsharp fstop 16. this would be called diffraction, right or not.
in my forum you can read about all the problems. and i have spent/lost almost half of my life with non-working rotating lens panoramic cameras(widelux 1500 is another sad chapter)
link is inside the am-lens-test or here
rotapancamera-forum
http://forums.delphiforums.com/pancams/start
be aware the scans are made with low-ressolution 2700 dpi ls-II(ls-20) coolscan. we only need to see the difference. if you have most perfect scanner or you print yourself, you can expect outstanding results. large prints up to 6m long. there is no alternative to horizon rotapan camera. its fully mechanic, you have almost all exposure times. forget that horizon compact. i have no clues why they put that on the market. would have better invested time in a perfect s3-pro. meanwhile they changed its name..... widelux 1500 has only 3 exposure settings, its a pain, i must work with nd-filter, depth of field is limited. horizons have bubble-level built in viewfinder. newer models have old-style camera-case- you can leave pistol-grip when camera is inside. bravo! lately in dpreview a siberian complained about lacking aa-batteries in digital-cameras. he should complain that there is no mechanical digital-camera...or a dynamo-loader. i cannot work without neigher horizons and widelux 1500 be for the latter, be aware it had 1000 problem due to main manufacturing errors. we had to improve. newest models are improved but dont ask which no.s, if you cannot test dont buy. and it must be done properly. if not you cannot check sharpness.
the noblex rotation is different from horizons. its speed depends upon exposure. horizons have two speeds(horizont only one) noblex slits are smaller, resulting in sharper-not much sharper images. MF-cameras: factory made close-up lenses if needed on fixfocus version results in perfect images at any distance.
noblex canada has them also for 135.
in narrow places or if you cannot stop down, you will need perfect lens position. for horizons easiest way is using dymotape-see my forum.
Last edited:
ishpop
tall person
Cool thread! I am narrowing my choices of a pano cam down also. Leaning towards the Horizon 202 no due to price.
The fotoman cam looks like a beauty and can take so many lenses!
The fotoman cam looks like a beauty and can take so many lenses!
europanorama
Well-known
go for horizon s3pro
go for horizon s3pro
despite the fact that its not perfectly sharp at fstop 16.
you have more exposure times than 202. this unsharpness can only be seen when enlarged at least 20x maybe 30x. you need a good loupe to check it. check my pbase-link -be aware that there are older and newer s3pro around. newer build have lens set at "better" position. first production fixed focus-lens was set at the position where infinity was also sharp at 2.8. but best fstop start at 8-to get good optical results. so at 8 also infinity should already be sharp when lens is at its best position. since there is a closeup-lens-solution to change depth-of-field i would take a camera of first production run. infinity sharp(but not of best sharpness, which starts at 8) at 2.8 already.
there is also a solution to add tape to filmrails to get the same effect. all described in my forum. also link to closeup-lens-production(easy task for an optician).
fotoman-production will/is stopped.
noblex will stop production in 2010. just got the information from kamerawerke ...dresden.
i once had the first noblex 5x12. fantastic camera. improved now. newer model have improved start-speed
and 35mm-modell improved technics.
its ultrasharp. forget any digital camera if you have a good scanner. older cams with fixed focus can take up ultrasharp closeup-lens(magnetic).
never buy widelux 1500, its only for collectors. endless amount of problems. check them at my forum.
we had to rebuild it. and it had been rebuilt by panon later. i dont know how its looking now. george s. pearl of atlanta still has mechanical widepan(widelux-copy) which has 35mm-option. 1/250 has overexposure at start which can be corrected with photoshop-said george when using colornegative-film. but it has only three exposure times. it is a big mess. one has to deal with nd-filters. if they were magnetic, no problem. pro photo-connection of irvine/ca-usa once made a magnetic filter-holder for widelux 1500.
i would forget any other horizon than horizon s3-pro, above all the compact, which even has only TWO exposure speeds. i am still reflecting why kmz-zenit had this stupid idea. i was told -an there was a press-conference about it, that they are working on a digital horizon. i wonder if it has the important shift.
if you intend to buy large format pancam be aware of limited depth of field. this problem will not be solved if the lens can be focused or close-up-lenses used.
i hope kmz-zenit will change its information-policy.
on the net there are lies saying that s3-pro lens is better.
i didnt see a difference expect at fstop 16 when lens is at best position(i used tape-method).
why all the fuss: if lens is fixed focus at set too far away from film and you shoot near subjects one has to stop down a lot. when shooting people indoors, one must use quick rotation not slower. horizons slowest speed at quick rotation is 1/60. horizont/the old metallic beast which also cost me all my nerves between 1979 and 1988 when i first met my repairman, has at least 1/30 as slowest quick rotation speed. together with tape-method near subjects were sharper, no need to further stop down or use speedier film. i also used 1600 asa sucessfully.
there is a horizon camera wikipedia. can someone pls search and post the link. i already added specifications or corrected them.
i love mechanical cameras. when its very windy one has big problems with noblex-rotating drums. impossible to cure. big problems shooting in windy helicopter-situation. when i had to shoot a new bridge-inauguration(dreilaenderbrücke-3 countries-bridge germany/france/switzerland) it was terribly stormy. my widelux, despite only 3 speeds, saved me. i used 1/60 and 800 asa. we once added slower speeds, interesting for artistic works. this had also be done with 35mm
wideluxes shooting sports.
i started rotating panorama just 30 years ago-1979 with horizont and its 1000 problems. lens is bad compared to horizon 202. forget older widelux 120/panopic etc. with hexanon, impossibel to shoot against light-source. noblex is perfect, widelux a bit worse. only george s.pearl has the perfect widepan. i hope i didnt confuse you totally, only bit.....
go for horizon s3pro
despite the fact that its not perfectly sharp at fstop 16.
you have more exposure times than 202. this unsharpness can only be seen when enlarged at least 20x maybe 30x. you need a good loupe to check it. check my pbase-link -be aware that there are older and newer s3pro around. newer build have lens set at "better" position. first production fixed focus-lens was set at the position where infinity was also sharp at 2.8. but best fstop start at 8-to get good optical results. so at 8 also infinity should already be sharp when lens is at its best position. since there is a closeup-lens-solution to change depth-of-field i would take a camera of first production run. infinity sharp(but not of best sharpness, which starts at 8) at 2.8 already.
there is also a solution to add tape to filmrails to get the same effect. all described in my forum. also link to closeup-lens-production(easy task for an optician).
fotoman-production will/is stopped.
noblex will stop production in 2010. just got the information from kamerawerke ...dresden.
i once had the first noblex 5x12. fantastic camera. improved now. newer model have improved start-speed
and 35mm-modell improved technics.
its ultrasharp. forget any digital camera if you have a good scanner. older cams with fixed focus can take up ultrasharp closeup-lens(magnetic).
never buy widelux 1500, its only for collectors. endless amount of problems. check them at my forum.
we had to rebuild it. and it had been rebuilt by panon later. i dont know how its looking now. george s. pearl of atlanta still has mechanical widepan(widelux-copy) which has 35mm-option. 1/250 has overexposure at start which can be corrected with photoshop-said george when using colornegative-film. but it has only three exposure times. it is a big mess. one has to deal with nd-filters. if they were magnetic, no problem. pro photo-connection of irvine/ca-usa once made a magnetic filter-holder for widelux 1500.
i would forget any other horizon than horizon s3-pro, above all the compact, which even has only TWO exposure speeds. i am still reflecting why kmz-zenit had this stupid idea. i was told -an there was a press-conference about it, that they are working on a digital horizon. i wonder if it has the important shift.
if you intend to buy large format pancam be aware of limited depth of field. this problem will not be solved if the lens can be focused or close-up-lenses used.
i hope kmz-zenit will change its information-policy.
on the net there are lies saying that s3-pro lens is better.
i didnt see a difference expect at fstop 16 when lens is at best position(i used tape-method).
why all the fuss: if lens is fixed focus at set too far away from film and you shoot near subjects one has to stop down a lot. when shooting people indoors, one must use quick rotation not slower. horizons slowest speed at quick rotation is 1/60. horizont/the old metallic beast which also cost me all my nerves between 1979 and 1988 when i first met my repairman, has at least 1/30 as slowest quick rotation speed. together with tape-method near subjects were sharper, no need to further stop down or use speedier film. i also used 1600 asa sucessfully.
there is a horizon camera wikipedia. can someone pls search and post the link. i already added specifications or corrected them.
i love mechanical cameras. when its very windy one has big problems with noblex-rotating drums. impossible to cure. big problems shooting in windy helicopter-situation. when i had to shoot a new bridge-inauguration(dreilaenderbrücke-3 countries-bridge germany/france/switzerland) it was terribly stormy. my widelux, despite only 3 speeds, saved me. i used 1/60 and 800 asa. we once added slower speeds, interesting for artistic works. this had also be done with 35mm
wideluxes shooting sports.
i started rotating panorama just 30 years ago-1979 with horizont and its 1000 problems. lens is bad compared to horizon 202. forget older widelux 120/panopic etc. with hexanon, impossibel to shoot against light-source. noblex is perfect, widelux a bit worse. only george s.pearl has the perfect widepan. i hope i didnt confuse you totally, only bit.....
John Robertson
Well-known
Had my 202 since 1995 no problems. The newer ones are quieter, I believe they have nylon gears to reduce noise.
Camera has a strong outer plastic covering, the body itself is cast aluminium, back door is plastic but very strong. Lens is Tessar type and multicaoted, mine is very sharp.
Works best on a tripod, mine came with pistol grip which has a built in storage for four supplied filters. UV,Yellow,Green,N.Density. I added a red and orange later.
Loading is not easy and requires a bit of practice, there is one roller it is easy to miss, which gives flared ends to the frame.
Camera has a strong outer plastic covering, the body itself is cast aluminium, back door is plastic but very strong. Lens is Tessar type and multicaoted, mine is very sharp.
Works best on a tripod, mine came with pistol grip which has a built in storage for four supplied filters. UV,Yellow,Green,N.Density. I added a red and orange later.
Loading is not easy and requires a bit of practice, there is one roller it is easy to miss, which gives flared ends to the frame.
Last edited:
Pablito
coco frío
Widelux mechanism is very finicky.
John Robertson
Well-known
somewhere on the web there is a stripdown of a Horizon, although it looks robust its NOT for the fainthearted!!
ishpop
tall person
Haha, wow.
You really know your panorama!
What I took from your post is that the best balance of price and features is the Horizon S3 Pro. The only regression from the 202 to the S3 is the F16 sharpness, but it is not significant enough to warrant buying the 202.
It seems any other options would really run me expensive anyways.
What kind of Panorama do you think was used for these shots?
http://www.mvgphoto.com/portfolio/portfolioliste.html
Love them!
HenningW
Well-known
Experience with panos
Experience with panos
At first (1960's) I had a Widelux; I forget which version but got an F7 in the late 70's. All Widelux I've tried have had banding issues to some degree or other. With my F7 I had to dry shoot it about 50 frames just before loading film to have any chance of having good shots. It got to be less of a problem after the camera had a few hundred rolls through it, but it never went away completely. The MF Widelux 1500 was a disaster.
I got one of the first Noblex 150's (sn 6) and used that for a couple of years, and then a 150U. These are great cameras with fantastic lenses, and of course they have definite shutter lag, but shooting action with a rotating lens camera is a bit of a hit and miss thing anyway.
I also have used a number of Horizont and Horizon cameras, and still have a 202 for occasional use. If you can get a decent used Noblex 135 for $500 or $600, I think you'll be happier. The Horizon optics are OK, but not outstanding like the Noblex's, and general handling as well as overall quality are not really comparable. I've had mine adjusted and lubed (it came dry and if you don't get it lubricated many parts will rust) and shimmed as necessary, and now it's decent.
I'll be sad when Noblex stops production, but there is still Roundshot. I have one of their 28/220 cameras, and while that one takes in a much wider view both vertically and optionally, horizontally, it's the same kind of camera in the type of shots it takes, but here the camera rotates as well as the lens. I use mine with a 28/3.5 PC Nikkor. Quality of this camera is in another league entirely; they make Hasselblads, Linhofs and Sinars feel flimsy and crude.
I also shoot Xpan and 6x12 (with 35 Grandagon and 47SA-XL) and used to have a Brooks Veriwide. They have their uses, and produce wonderful results, but you can't really compare them to rotating lens cameras, just as Fisheye lens shots produce the third typ of extra wide type of shots with yet another type of distortion.
When you go wide, you distort. Different distortions serve different purposes.
Henning
Experience with panos
At first (1960's) I had a Widelux; I forget which version but got an F7 in the late 70's. All Widelux I've tried have had banding issues to some degree or other. With my F7 I had to dry shoot it about 50 frames just before loading film to have any chance of having good shots. It got to be less of a problem after the camera had a few hundred rolls through it, but it never went away completely. The MF Widelux 1500 was a disaster.
I got one of the first Noblex 150's (sn 6) and used that for a couple of years, and then a 150U. These are great cameras with fantastic lenses, and of course they have definite shutter lag, but shooting action with a rotating lens camera is a bit of a hit and miss thing anyway.
I also have used a number of Horizont and Horizon cameras, and still have a 202 for occasional use. If you can get a decent used Noblex 135 for $500 or $600, I think you'll be happier. The Horizon optics are OK, but not outstanding like the Noblex's, and general handling as well as overall quality are not really comparable. I've had mine adjusted and lubed (it came dry and if you don't get it lubricated many parts will rust) and shimmed as necessary, and now it's decent.
I'll be sad when Noblex stops production, but there is still Roundshot. I have one of their 28/220 cameras, and while that one takes in a much wider view both vertically and optionally, horizontally, it's the same kind of camera in the type of shots it takes, but here the camera rotates as well as the lens. I use mine with a 28/3.5 PC Nikkor. Quality of this camera is in another league entirely; they make Hasselblads, Linhofs and Sinars feel flimsy and crude.
I also shoot Xpan and 6x12 (with 35 Grandagon and 47SA-XL) and used to have a Brooks Veriwide. They have their uses, and produce wonderful results, but you can't really compare them to rotating lens cameras, just as Fisheye lens shots produce the third typ of extra wide type of shots with yet another type of distortion.
When you go wide, you distort. Different distortions serve different purposes.
Henning
Last edited:
raid
Dad Photographer
I have a Horizon 202 which has worked flawlessly for me since about 5 years. I also recommend the Graflex XLSW with the Schneider 47mm lens [for 120 format].
MickH
Well-known
You may find these two worth a look...
http://www.ephotozine.com/article/Panoramic-camera-advice-113
http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/horizon/horizon-vs-widelux-eng.html
http://www.ephotozine.com/article/Panoramic-camera-advice-113
http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/horizon/horizon-vs-widelux-eng.html
europanorama
Well-known
1. roundshot also stops production of analogues.
28/220 has no focus. lens is too short wor certain shot.
no shift
2. horizon-there is a wiki.
instructions how to load film are around.
one can print up to 6m without a problem.
3. lens of noblex 150 5x12cm is better when shootin against light compared to widelux. never noblex have shorter delay. newest 135 are improved. noblex will stop rotapancamera-production in 2010. company will still exist doing industrial work. new ownership
europanorama
Well-known
horizont/horizon/widelux-article is unprecise as always.
he should have written 35mm horizon/widelux have foxfocus. widelux 1500 has focus, but below 5m resolution is reduced which can be seen at 20x50cm prints. first production was a desaster. forget shooting. banding, unsharp zones, 1 million construction mistakes, main mistakes in using material. they let other do the job. panon camer shoko co.(not shoke) didnt have its own fabrication, at least not at the end.
read my findings in my forum.
David Murphy
Veteran
I don't know much about this topic, but I have briefly owned a Noblex and was not too impressed by its construction quality - I forgot which model. The Widelux on the other hand is an impressive piece of work mechanically and style-wise IMO. I'd favor it for that reason alone! It strikes me as one audacious old-school piece of Japanese opto-mechanical camera engineering.
ishpop
tall person
Which of all the options is the smallest?
Are any of these potentially hand-holdable in bright conditions?
I am still leaning towards the Horizon 202 as it is cheapest and seems to be light. I can't imagine spending 2k on a format I have no experience with.
Are any of these potentially hand-holdable in bright conditions?
I am still leaning towards the Horizon 202 as it is cheapest and seems to be light. I can't imagine spending 2k on a format I have no experience with.
ishpop
tall person
That being said the Widelux 1500 looks and sounds sweet. Would love to have a 120 roll shooting this format.
*edit: All the issues not being considered, lol.
*edit: All the issues not being considered, lol.
ishpop
tall person
Hey Raid. I realize this is not a swing camera, but you recommend it for general 120 wides right? Like a 21mm POV? What format, 6 X 9 roughly?
Here is one I found:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...Track=true&ssPageName=VIP:Watchlink:middle:us
My guess is this is a tripod only cam or maybe can be handheld?
MickH
Well-known
I have only run a couple of films through my Horizon 202 so far. All shots have been hand-held at 1/250. Results are OK. I still have much to learn.
HenningW
Well-known
True, Roundshot don't make film cameras anymore.
Yes, the 28mm lens is too short for some shots. The 50mm lens on a Noblex 150 is too long for some shots, and too short for others. That's the way it is with lenses.
However, focussing is no problem. Does your 28/3.5 PC Nikkor have a focussing helicoid? Mine does. Does it shift? Mine does.
Newer Noblex cameras have the same delay as older ones. 1/2 drum rotation.
Henning