The decisive moment with the Leica M3

[TWoK]

Why? Could you please explain?

Sure, which part?

 

[yanidel]

To get back to that "theme" of this thread..Decisive Moment. I would like to offer a couple of selections of text from the Book published in 2001 by Bulfinch.

Titled "Bystander- A history of Street Photography"

In the chapter 8 titled "Decisive Photographer" about HCB

Page 156 ( Left Column ) Paragraph 3 & 4 "These are the qualities that the picture from Seville has, and the ones hinted at in the French title for Cartier-Bresson's 1952 book. Images a la sauvette. "The Decisive Moment" is misleading as a translation, for the moment refferred to is that just before a decision is made, the moment of anticipation rather than conclusion.

A la sauvette is a colloquialism roughly equivalent to "On the Run" but, accoriding to a gloss on the phrase that Francoise Boas gave to Grace Mayer at the Modern, there is also an un translatable future element involved.
The instant being described is the one when you are just about to take off."

The Bystander book is really a great example of 2 writters chasing history and not myths. HBC was chasing the perfect geometric compositional moment...not action. One Page 157 the book goes on to say.

Page 156 "Ernst Hass came close to the mark, when he describbed Cartier-Bresson's work as "off compositions." Hass said that they were "perfect in their imperfection." same paragraph page 156..." Cartier Bresson's photographs a la sauvette are actions that are yet to be resolved. They are events that are inchoate. Stopped at just this point by the photograph, they remain forever irresolvable, equivocal , ambivalent."

In an interview with Le Monde...HBC commented on the famous shot of the man "Jumping Man" over the water..where we see the reflection and man at moment just "before" he lands on his reflection in the water. Pointing out that the most important details that "make the photo" are the dancers in the posters in the background mocking the man. The implied comment from that interview is that "chance" of getting the position of the man connected to that of the dancers is the real compositional point. Not the moment before he makes a splash.

In HCB's book " The Mind's Eye" on page 39 he makes a very interesting series of comments. HCB says.."I am constantly amused by the notion which reveals itself in an insatiable craving for sharpness of images. It this the passion of an obession? Or do these people hope by this "trompe l' oeil" technique, to get to closer grips with reality? In either case , they are just as far away from the real problems as those of that generation which used to endow all it's photographic anecdotes with an ...( wait for it ) intentional unsharpness such as was deemed to be "artistic".

I found this quote to be really stunning...so I guess we can be that HCB would not be interested in shooting with a Noctilux or the so fashionable zero depth of field. Most of geometry and the golden section were the real driving passion of his compostional needs.

So stoping action was not his real goal...and the decisive moment is grossly missunderstood. It was the moment when all geometrical elements come together in a balance.

Interesting references and indeed a lot of confusion on the roots and meanings of "the Decisive moment".
I would nevertheless alter a bit your perception of "à la sauvette". this term comes initially from "vendeurs à la sauvette" which were unauthorized street vendors that would sell and run away as soon as police would show up (they still exist today and sell many fake bags or CD's). So à la sauvette brings to me (as a native French speaker) more the notion of fleeing and save one's fate than simply an hurried moment with unresolved action.
So maybe HCB really meant more shots "quickly stolen" than the terrible translation to "Decisive moments" (which indeed is the moment just before the snap, not the picture itself as we all know that M have huuuuuge shutter lags ) 😉

 

[TWoK]

The part about manual cameras being slow.

Unless you pre-set your camera it is much slower to shoot a fully manual camera vs something with some sort of automation. Now of course that's not a popular fact around here, but I don't see how it's open to dispute. If you already have your exposure where you want it, of course you only have to release the shutter, but the M3 is no more prepared for the decisive moment than anything else out there. Shutter lag has never made me miss a shot, just my own stupidity.

 

[KM-25]

Unless you pre-set your camera it is much slower to shoot a fully manual camera vs something with some sort of automation. Now of course that's not a popular fact around here, but I don't see how it's open to dispute. If you already have your exposure where you want it, of course you only have to release the shutter, but the M3 is no more prepared for the decisive moment than anything else out there. Shutter lag has never made me miss a shot, just my own stupidity.

I agree with this. I definitely feel a different sense of readiness with my M3 than my F100. The V/F of the M3 is always "on" in terms of what is going in it, seeing what is about to enter the frame lines. But the F100 is ready to tackle action, using AF, great metering that is always evaluating, etc.

 

[TWoK]

I won't try to dispute the 'facts' as you see them, but I must surely be doing something wrong if you are correct. My MPs are quicker than any automated camera I've ever owned, including pro DSLRs.

So you have tangible shutter lag on an M7 or Ikon? What if the 'decisive moment' is in changing light? Can you change from 1/500th @ f/2.8 to 1/50 @ f/1.4 faster than I can just go to 1.4 and release the shutter while the camera does the exposure for me? I love my manual cameras. They just aren't as spontaneous or fast to shoot as an Ikon, etc.

 

[yanidel]

So you have tangible shutter lag on an M7 or Ikon? What if the 'decisive moment' is in changing light? Can you change from 1/500th @ f/2.8 to 1/50 @ f/1.4 faster than I can just go to 1.4 and release the shutter while the camera does the exposure for me? I love my manual cameras. They just aren't as spontaneous or fast to shoot as an Ikon, etc.

Take a M8/9 in zone focus. Put it on aperture priority, Auto-ISO and it is the fastest camera in the West. If you shoot wide open, it will be slower but a DSLR might also focus where you did not want to.

 

[jonmanjiro]

Take a M8/9 in zone focus. Put it on aperture priority, Auto-ISO and it is the fastest camera in the West. If you shoot wide open, it will be slower but a DSLR might also focus where you did not want to.

It's possible to turn AF off on a DLSR and zone focus.

On a slightly different note, a D700 will take about 40 photos before the buffer fills up and the write speed to the memory card slows down. How many photos can an M8/9 take before that happens? 😀🙄😀

 

[yanidel]

It's possible to turn AF off on a DLSR and zone focus.

Yes, but the scale markings are either 3 meters of infinty on most DSLR lenses. Not the easiest way to zone focus ...

On a slightly different note, a D700 will take about 40 photos before the buffer fills up and the write speed to the memory card slows down. How many photos can an M8/9 take before that happens? 😀🙄😀

The M9 has a continuous mode ... which I never used. I take photographs, I am not in the military. 😀

 

[jonmanjiro]

Yes, but the scale markings are either 3 meters of infinty on most DSLR lenses. Not the easiest way to zone focus ...

Can only speak for Nikon, but a lot of Nikkor lenses (for film and DLSR) have fully usable DOF scales. Not that a DOF scale is really needed when shooting wides.

The M9 has a continuous mode ... which I never used. I take photographs, I am not in the military. 😀

I should have know better than to expect a straight answer from an M9 user with regards to buffer writing speed etc. 🙄😀

 

[yanidel]

Can only speak for Nikon, but a lot of Nikkor lenses (for film and DLSR) have fully usable DOF scales. Not that a DOF scale is really needed when shooting wides.

Good to know that some lenses have it. I shoot mostly F1.2 - F4, so DOF management is very important to me, especially on wides such as the 35mm Lux. As I see a potential scene unfold, I always pre-set my lens to the estimated distance to subject and needed aperture, that is why precise markings are very important. This allows to just raise the camera to the eye and click when the"decisive moment" is a go ... and there is no opportunity to fine tune focus.
If I screwed up focus, it is 100% my fault, not the AF that might have locked on the wrong subject.

 

[petronius]

This starts to turn into a my **** is bigger than your **** discussion.
It´s about the pictures and we should not mind the tools. (Sometimes i try to imagine how the world of photography would look like if Barnack had built a SLR and HCB had used it.)

 

[Keith]

Sometimes i try to imagine how the world of photography would look like if Barnack had built a SLR and HCB had used it.)

That's deep! 😛

 

[yanidel]

This starts to turn into a my **** is bigger than your **** discussion.
It´s about the pictures and we should not mind the tools.

Then you participate to the wrong thread or need to re-read the initial post.

 

[dfoo]

...
The images I got were great because the subjects had my word I would not be posting them on the internet, ever. The magazine also agreed with that process, print only. No watermark needed because no internet needed.
...

How ridiculous. I don't get this. Why does posting the images on the internet mean the images would be crap. Is posting images on the internet somehow a dirty concept now?

 

[dfoo]

I also don't get this nonsense with watermarks. What are you so afraid of? Someone is going to steal a 640 pixel image and do exactly what with it? Do you honestly think anyone who is going to steal such a small image would ever pay you for anything anyway?

 

[spystyle]

I heard that having an expensive camera doesn't certainly mean you can make good photos 🙂

 

[larmarv916]

Hello "yanidel"...being that your in line at the moment...Later in the text the, translation that was offered for as translation was..."photos on the run" Which I saw as being again a better direct description. Thanks for the additional french lesson.

 

[rHytHm]

I have given up on water marks a long time ago. Although I am not relying on photography as a main source of income I do earn a fair share (enough that I have to report to the IRS).

Long story short, I sell myself and not the photos I have created. If you upload a low res image you keep the work intact without distracting the viewers eyes. And a low res image deters people from trying to steal the image.

I have no comment on the original post as I am not able to see the image for what it is due to the watermarks obstruction.

 

[Benjamin]

It´s about the pictures and we should not mind the tools. (Sometimes i try to imagine how the world of photography would look like if Barnack had built a SLR and HCB had used it.)

Well, I'm sure that it wouldn't have stopped him taking pictures.

Why on earth would it?


On one hand I think that we are incredibly lucky to have so many fine tools at our disposal, and often at relatively low cost, though on the other, it often shows up here that many are dumb struck with the burden of such dear choice.

Bad cameras have taken many fine, insightful, and compassionate photographs, just as fine, precision-made pieces have sat in dusty attics and unskilled hands, and proved that their being is nigh on useless.

I mean, I would of course agree that a Leica is a fine, capable tool and find it to be a perfect instrument in almost everything that I do.

The thing being with fully manual cameras is that they lack the ability to be slow or stupid. That's our part. Nothing quite sickens me more than a camera that thinks. That's my part. If I miss the picture, the moment, any truth in a scene, it's my problem. The camera just blinks, it would be foolish to expect anything more of it. Simplicity inspires.

Of course there are certain things that one has to learn to live, and work with. My cameras are always set to what I expect to happen. Sure, it doesn't always work out, though much comes with experience and just bloody-minded determination.

 

[yanidel]

Hello "yanidel"...being that your in line at the moment...Later in the text the, translation that was offered for as translation was..."photos on the run" Which I saw as being again a better direct description. Thanks for the additional french lesson.

Photos on the run obviously is a literal translation that works but simplifies a bit too much the complexity of the term. In French "à la sauvette" derives from the verb "sauver" or "se sauver" which in English can be translated to either "to flee" or "to save". So there is a concept of self protection in "à la sauvette", this is why I personnally get a feeling of it meaning "Quick stolen images", that is images taken quickly without the subject being aware.
Of course, I am not a French teacher 😉 so I could be wrong.