Cal, the other option is to buy something like a Datacolor*Spyder4PRO and do it that way... it's still hardware calibration which allows you to change the brightness, etc too (on any monitor that doesn't have it built in).
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
Will,
I'm on rather steep learning curve, but already I can see outstanding results, and I'm only printing 8 1/2 by 11's.
On one head-to-toe shot of my girlfriend I can see on an 8 1/2 by 11 peach fuzz on my girl's chin on the print. ("Maggie" is no bearded lady BTW LOL.) The K-7 ink curves have "long tails" meaning the 7 inks overlap a lot to define smooth continuios tone, just like in a real analog negative.
Unlike Jeff, another poster here on RFF who only saw small samples before going Piezography, I actually handled a 13x17 inch digital negative that was made by Jon Cone himself, and this was over two years ago when I first saw some of the first developments and capabilities of making digital negatives. Now the capability is more mature and developed. I shared this Jon Cone portfolio with others at a NYC Meet-Up BTW.
Just like how some shooters say that Fuji Acros looks too digital, and some did not appreciate the large format qualities of tonality, resolution and detail, but I for one like these qualities of large format photography, even though I only shoot small and medium format.
I can see me one day producing some limited editions of some files that are worthy of the extream quality and permanance of a wet print. Not likely for every day, but it is a great capability. One limitation is that currently the Jon Cone curves available for making digital negatives for silver printing is limited to Ilford fiber paper. For the ultimate I wonder how a print might compare on Kodak AZO for that large format extended tonal range. The limit currently with AZO is 20x24 is the biggest paper size however.
I'm 57 now, but when I retire I think I will know what I'll be doing...
More so than time this requires a lot of space, and also a lot of money. I would still need a rather large vacuum frame which takes up a lot of real estate. Also know I have a complete wet darkroom in storage and that I still shoot mucho film.
Cal
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
John,
Not the same from my understanding. Software calibration compromises fidelity. My understanding is that the only current hardware calibrated monitors are either Eizo (the best IMHO) or NEC.
Understand that with Piezography one need all shades from zero-255. It resolves that good.
Hardware calibrated monitors have the capability to dim without compressing. Making a new LUT does not give you 0-255 in 2.2 Gamut color space in non hardware calibrated monitors.
Cal
Perhaps I'm missing something... but it's not just software calibration, there is hardware involved... it's just external hardware (as opposed to the Eizo's built in hardware).
Ah I see... it's Eizo's definitions...
http://www.eizoglobal.com/library/management/calibration/02.html
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
John,
This all gets complicated really fast. I wouldn't have paid for the resolution and fidelity if I didn't need it. Realize that the Eizo I bought is some of the best money I ever spent. Now I can't live without it. LOL.
BTW on my 27 inch Eizo my images from my Monochrom are displayed as 13x17.
Cal
Jager
Established
To amplify... when we calibrate a monitor with a physical puck-type device, a la a Spyder or an i1, that puck is reading color and luminance values and thence creating a translation table. The puck is a piece of hardware but the created display profile is purely a piece of software that modifies the output of the monitor.
No hardware changes happen in the monitor as a result of having created that display profile.
The problem is that nearly all displays are designed for high brightness and high contrast, because those are the things that look good to consumers. And when we, as photographers, instruct our monitors (through that display profile we created) to dramatically dial down luminance and color temp so as to match the paper we have in our printer, we find that our monitors are unable to maintain fidelity at those levels. They compress values.
Said differently, you can have a very nice, very expensive LCD display; profile it carefully with a Spyder or i1; and still be unable to see all 255 luminance levels, or the entire Adobe 1998 gamut.
The solution is to get one of those Eizo or NEC Spectraview monitors Cal refers to. Those are hardware-calibrated. And are purpose-designed for graphics/photography use.
You see everything with those...
No hardware changes happen in the monitor as a result of having created that display profile.
The problem is that nearly all displays are designed for high brightness and high contrast, because those are the things that look good to consumers. And when we, as photographers, instruct our monitors (through that display profile we created) to dramatically dial down luminance and color temp so as to match the paper we have in our printer, we find that our monitors are unable to maintain fidelity at those levels. They compress values.
Said differently, you can have a very nice, very expensive LCD display; profile it carefully with a Spyder or i1; and still be unable to see all 255 luminance levels, or the entire Adobe 1998 gamut.
The solution is to get one of those Eizo or NEC Spectraview monitors Cal refers to. Those are hardware-calibrated. And are purpose-designed for graphics/photography use.
You see everything with those...
Thanks Jager, I get it now. Cal, sorry for the detour.
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
John,
Its all good.
Jeff,
Thanks for the clarity.
BTW I love my Eizo. I got a great price from a dealer PM if you need the details.
When I power up my Eizo a prob pops up to adjust the monitor to the ambient light of the room. Also weekly it automatically calibrates itself upon shutdown.
Cal
Cal, I'm not sure what I'm going to do yet, but it's getting time for an upgrade (my computer is 4 years old and is getting to be pretty slow). This is good info to know going forward.
shadowfox
Darkroom printing lives
Wait, you said limited to Ilford fiber paper?
I thought digital negatives are printed on inkjet coated transparency sheets.
calebarchie
Established
That is correct, and contact printed with any paper of your choosing.
shadowfox
Darkroom printing lives
That's how I've done it for Kallitype and Cyanotype.
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
John,
For paper or an Eizo I have a dealer in N.J. who gives me insider deals. PM me for contact info. You will deal directly with the big guy who is the biggest Canson dealer in the U.S. No tax and low prices.
Cal
POSTSCRIPT: I forgot to mention that this dealer also sells Epson printers and I think others.
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
The digital negatives are printed on Overhead Transparency Film, but the the digital negatives in turn are printed on Ilford fiber. At this time this is the limitation for silver printing meaning only one paper. This is due to the availability of free curves that have been developed by Cone Inks that intergrate into the Quadtone RIP.
There are other seperate Jon Cone digital negative systems for alternative processes, and carbon printing...
One of the problems with Piezography is that you have to sort through mucho information and sort through an information overload. You got to be stubborn to get through it all. I will say that Jon Cone really did a great job and did the heavy lifting for you and me, and for this I am greatful.
Even if you don't use Piezography there is a lot of information that is useful that can make you both a better photographer and a better printer.
Cal
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
The curves available are currently limited to ones that are specifically designed for using Ilford Fiber. While you could print on other papers with the digital negatives made specifically for contact printing on Ilford Fiber paper, the results are unlikely to match your soft proofs, and new curves would have to be developed that involve a lot of dosemetry, making step wedges and experimenting.
Alternative processing and carbon printing are different stories. My comments on limitations apply to silver printing only.
Cal
Thanks Cal, we will talk offline about this at the next meet-up or something. I still have to give you back your Wire DVDs.
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
John,
No stress.
This dealer can save you a lot. I found out that everything really adds up to more than I ever expected. Granted I bulked up for savings. I figure that the 220ml bottles of ink are more ink than three times the volume of an Epson OEM color inkset that costs $420.00 to replace.
Cal
Just a quick follow up regarding the Spectraview monitors... they appear to have a hockey puck type device coupled with software for calibration. How does it differ from the 3rd party types?
"SpectraViewII Color Calibration Solution, which includes software and colorimeter, helps the display achieve accurate, consistent and repeatable color performance."
Jager
Established
Other than convenience, I'm not aware that the built-in calibrators in the Eizo and NEC Spectraview monitors are any better. You can use a 3rd-party if you like (the Eizo owners manual actually gives instructions on doing so; I'm assuming the NEC's probably do likewise).
What the Eizo and NEC Spectraview monitors give you vis-a-vis other monitors is:
- Accurate gamma. Ability to see all 255 luminance levels
- Ability to see essentially all (99%) of the Adobe 1998 gamut
- Corner to corner uniformity
- Fast start-up (my Eizo claims 7 minutes until color and tones are stable)
There certainly is a place for other monitors. I'm a huge Apple fan and have owned a couple of their large Cinema displays. Absolutely gorgeous for watching movies or browsing the internet or, really, for anything except drop-dead serious photography. For that, they, and most monitors, are a quick fail.
I was a reluctant convert to Eizo. I simply didn't want to drop the coin when I already had not one, but two - including the Retina screen on my MacBook Pro - quite serviceable displays.
Having finally bit the bullet, I can't describe what an utter luxury it is to have the image on the screen in front of me almost perfectly match what comes out of my Epson 3880 printer, when placed in the GTI viewing station right next to the monitor. Soft proofing suddenly isn't just some arcane way of getting "kinda, sorta, close." When you can look at your screen and know that the edits you make in Lightroom or Photoshop, however subtle, will be exactly reflected in the print that comes out, when you finally hit the button, everything changes. Everything.
I cannot recommend a good display enough.
Thanks again for the info Jager and Cal. It's time to step it up a notch and get one of these.