The next digital M: When?

[Lss]

I shoot concerts, and find myself often resorting to short bursts for a single photo with the hands/expression/light looking right. I also use full burst when focus bracketing moving objects.

For this type of use, high fps, especially combined with tunable variable-speed continuous shooting, is a useful feature. All digital M mount cameras lack this. Buffer size for such use is secondary, it simply needs to be sufficient. Of course, the numbers quoted above (15-30 seconds for 4-5 frames) are bad. It is difficult to say what to make out of them, they are hardly exact.

I only have the M8 myself, and I have never been limited by its buffer size. Clearly, the speed is better than the numbers above.

 

[Lss]

when the right moment comes, I might take up to 6-10 images within 15 seconds or so. I browsed my archive and found one good example of this, a picture of a reindeer jumping against a fence.

Once again, I am speaking of the M8 and not the M Monochrom which I have never held in my hands.

I made a quick test according to this scenario. I grabbed the camera, started a stop watch, and shot some frames using the continuous mode, lifting my finger off the shutter between all but I think the first two or three consecutive exposures. All the while I was keeping an eye on the watch. As it was closing 15 seconds, I stopped it (at 14.851 seconds). During this time, the camera achieved a total of 13 exposures. Omitting the hour and minute, the DNG files show the following times:

Image 01: 34 seconds
Image 02: 34 seconds
Image 03: 35 seconds
Image 04: 36 seconds
Image 05: 37 seconds
Image 06: 38 seconds
Image 07: 42 seconds
Image 08: 43 seconds
Image 09: 44 seconds
Image 10: 45 seconds
Image 11: 46 seconds
Image 12: 47 seconds
Image 13: 47 seconds

Between images 6 and 7 I shortly paused to simulate a moment of "considering how the composition evolves". The camera did not feel at all unresponsive during the test, it made every exposure when I pushed the shutter, or as fast as the camera can make exposures while keeping the shutter pressed in continuous operation (which I believe is 2fps for 10 shots). After stopping the watch, the memory card light on the camera kept flashing for a while as the buffer was being written to the card. I did not time this flashing. It would have been possible to make more exposures, but the camera is slow for chimping when it writes to card. It needs to clear each image from the buffer to allow viewing it. The SD card is a Sandisk 4GB SDHC card that must be at least 6 years old. The speed/class does not appear on the card.

This test was at about 24C, but the camera works very well in freezing temperatures. It should be noted that the M9 and M Monochrom are slightly slower in continuous shooting, they are rated at 2fps for 8 shots, IIRC. They likely have more or less the same pipeline as M8, but the file size is larger.

 

[pmu]

Once again, I am speaking of the M8 and not the M Monochrom which I have never held in my hands.

I made a quick test according to this scenario. I grabbed the camera, started a stop watch, and shot some frames using the continuous mode, lifting my finger off the shutter between all but I think the first two or three consecutive exposures. All the while I was keeping an eye on the watch. As it was closing 15 seconds, I stopped it (at 14.851 seconds). During this time, the camera achieved a total of 13 exposures. Omitting the hour and minute, the DNG files show the following times:

Image 01: 34 seconds
Image 02: 34 seconds
Image 03: 35 seconds
Image 04: 36 seconds
Image 05: 37 seconds
Image 06: 38 seconds
Image 07: 42 seconds
Image 08: 43 seconds
Image 09: 44 seconds
Image 10: 45 seconds
Image 11: 46 seconds
Image 12: 47 seconds
Image 13: 47 seconds

Between images 6 and 7 I shortly paused to simulate a moment of "considering how the composition evolves". The camera did not feel at all unresponsive during the test, it made every exposure when I pushed the shutter, or as fast as the camera can make exposures while keeping the shutter pressed in continuous operation (which I believe is 2fps for 10 shots). After stopping the watch, the memory card light on the camera kept flashing for a while as the buffer was being written to the card. I did not time this flashing. It would have been possible to make more exposures, but the camera is slow for chimping when it writes to card. It needs to clear each image from the buffer to allow viewing it. The SD card is a Sandisk 4GB SDHC card that must be at least 6 years old. The speed/class does not appear on the card.

This test was at about 24C, but the camera works very well in freezing temperatures. It should be noted that the M9 and M Monochrom are slightly slower in continuous shooting, they are rated at 2fps for 8 shots, IIRC. They likely have more or less the same pipeline as M8, but the file size is larger.

Thank you! This exact data helps a lot to realize the real life speed. The speed of M8 sounds adequate to me, I think I could live with that. Would be really nice to see similar test with other digital M's!

 

[Lss]

Another test for reference. Using the same SD card and continuous shooting for 1 minute, the camera achieved a total of 32 exposures. The first 12 exposures were fairly fast, after that the camera complained about "data transfer" before allowing each following exposure.

 

[Lss]

The speed/class does not appear on the card.

Yes, it does. The logo is very large, it is funny I missed it. 🙄 It is a class 2 card, so it is a very very slow one.

 

[airfrogusmc]

My point was that Gibson like MANY HERE and also like Jill Freedman and Joel Meyerowitz can shoot with anything they want to shoot with and they all choose Leica M.

 

[airfrogusmc]

I`m curious ... just what is it that you shoot that requires all this speed ?

It's OK FPS are going to become irrelevant in the next few years with the DSLR crowd. It's just a matter of time when they will all shoot video and find the moment in post. Not the shooting experience I want but just fine for some.

 

[Michael Markey]

Thanks for that I was just curious.

I take a lot of equestrian shots ...including jump shots but I very rarely need to take more than a single shot.

Thats because I know when they are going to jump ...or more importantly when they are going to miss a stride and fail.

I used film M `s , film SLR`s and DSLR`s but I still take single shots either on the take off or when they bascule.

I`m not suggesting that burst isn`t useful ,just that I have never used it...which brings us back to the original question about the next M.

Will this be a feature that will be improved in future models and if so will that make the M cameras virtually indistinguishable from DSLR`s .

 

[Michael Markey]

It's OK FPS are going to become irrelevant in the next few years with the DSLR crowd. It's just a matter of time when they will all shoot video and find the moment in post. Not the shooting experience I want but just fine for some.

Well I must admit that did cross my mind ...maybe a video would be better.
Like you its not what I look for in an M camera and as I`ve said in the previous posts I do use them for "sports" shots.
I like to work on my timing though and don`t look for a technological solution.

If they introduced that sort of fast shooting facility into the M line it would ,as far as I`m concerned ,be a retrograde step.

The trouble is people find it hard to deal with disappointment these days ...they expect to capture everything and if they don`t then there must be something wrong with the camera.

 

[airfrogusmc]

My street work is unpredictable for the most part. In my opinion many have been sold the idea that they can't shoot X because to shoot X you have the have Y. If pmu needs those kinds of speeds then he needs a camera designed with that in mind. Leica M is not that kind of camera. Proper tool for the job. For fast moving street and candid work the Leica M and MM digital are as good as it gets. For something that needs 10 FPS then not so good and not the right tool.

And if Leica M gets to much like DSLRs when the MM dies and can no longer get repaired I will probably not buy Leica digital again. I hope that never happens.

 

[Addy101]

The speed/class does not appear on the card.

One of the reasons I prefer CF over SD is this stupid "class" system, as it seems to tell you something 'bout the speed of a card but it hardly does - it only gives you only the minimum speed. So, some class 4 cards are faster then some class 10 cards.... :bang::bang:

Funny how this thread moved away from when the new M will appear.

 

[airfrogusmc]

Well I must admit that did cross my mind ...maybe a video would be better.
Like you its not what I look for in an M camera and as I`ve said in the previous posts I do use them for "sports" shots.
I like to work on my timing though and don`t look for a technological solution.

If they introduced that sort of fast shooting facility into the M line it would ,as far as I`m concerned ,be a retrograde step.

The trouble is people find it hard to deal with disappointment these days ...they expect to capture everything and if they don`t then there must be something wrong with the camera.

I agree.

In my opinion the M digital is an extremely fast shooting camera (just not FPS) but it takes some practice to get really good at it.

My professional work has me shooting sports and I have shot concert on occasion and I usually with my Canons but I only shoot in single mode. I don't think i have ever shot in anything else. Sometimes the real mojo is between the FPS. 😎

 

[YYV_146]

For this type of use, high fps, especially combined with tunable variable-speed continuous shooting, is a useful feature. All digital M mount cameras lack this. Buffer size for such use is secondary, it simply needs to be sufficient. Of course, the numbers quoted above (15-30 seconds for 4-5 frames) are bad. It is difficult to say what to make out of them, they are hardly exact.

I only have the M8 myself, and I have never been limited by its buffer size. Clearly, the speed is better than the numbers above.

A 15s cooldown for a 5-shot sequence is unusable. A lot of things can happen in 15 seconds, and I often shoot more than 5 frames in a burst.

As a reference, my A7 clears a 20-shot RAW sequence at about 30-45 seconds using a 120m/s (rated) UHS-1 card. After only 5 shots there is no penalty on shooting speed, and I rarely work until the camera forces me to stop.

Of course, 90% of my shots come from no more than three or four individually placed frames of a single scene. But I like to have the alternative, which is one of the nitpicks I have with the M9. The current M is fast enough if you look at the specs, but the buffer is much smaller than comparable full frame cameras.

 

[icebear]

I am pretty sure HCB did not work with FPS. But he did have a particular style.
So when some claim for their work they need high FPS rate in a camera, then so be it, just choose a different camera.

Why get all hung up on this particular feature that isn't a strong point in a M ?
Just choose a different camera.
The M is about seeing and capturing the moment and most likely a moment that others pass by and don't realize.
It's about capturing a moment and not about covering the action.
Don't choose the wrong tool for your job and then start complaining.

And one more thing :
I do still remember changing film😉. So by the time I have my 16Gb's (about 400 DNGs) full, I would have had to change film about 12 times - which also is a little bit slow with a M3 style RF type of body.

 

[airfrogusmc]

Just a few recent timing things that were unpredictable. This could be adapted to any subject matter. It's about learning see and being able to capture the moment in my opinion. And the way I prefer to work and many Leica owners are also of the same mindset instead of blasting through. There are a lot of those FPS options out there if thats what you need.

And I am not posting these to say these are great photographs just that I was able to capture the things that I saw in the moment consistently with one of the truly great tools for doing that.

I was crossing the street and saw that the two people walking in opposite directions, the woman walking towards me and I was hoping they just might be in step when the lady on the right stepped on the white stripe. They were and I was ready. One shot...

thought this was worth a repost

and a few others that capture that moment.

Shot out my car window at a stop light. They bent over and mimicked the poster. Camera was on the seat next to me.

The guy in the background mimics the poster the just as the guy in the foreground turned to look at it.

And all the circles and matching strides in the background

 

[pmu]

If pmu needs those kinds of speeds then he needs a camera designed with that in mind. Leica M is not that kind of camera. Proper tool for the job.

Now you can finally stop telling me that I have no first hand expereince of MM and that I should buy and test it myself, instead on believing reviewers and comments found on internet. You just saved me 7000 euros. Thank you.

 

[YYV_146]

I am pretty sure HCB did not work with FPS. But he did have a particular style.
So when some claim for their work they need high FPS rate in a camera, then so be it, just choose a different camera.

Why get all hung up on this particular feature that isn't a strong point in a M ?
Just choose a different camera.
The M is about seeing and capturing the moment and most likely a moment that others pass by and don't realize.
It's about capturing a moment and not about covering the action.
Don't choose the wrong tool for your job and then start complaining.

And one more thing :
I do still remember changing film😉. So by the time I have my 16Gb's (about 400 DNGs) full, I would have had to change film about 12 times - which also is a little bit slow with a M3 style RF type of body.

However, there are decorated M users who shot profusely, despite the limitations of film and M cameras. Garry Winogrand worked with several M4s and has, reportedly, finished over 50,000 rolls in his career. That's the equivalents of me shooting an assignment every work day of every month and year until I'm 55. I'm not exactly sure how he does it, but I have huge admiration for his work.

And if you look at some of the less "orthodox" accounts, HCB was known to occasionally pull through dozens of rolls a day. Even by digital standards, that's a lot of images.

And for the M8 at least, I didn't feel that the camera was as fast I could be when shooting film. With film there is no buffer, no hard stop. You can take a few shots, take a few extra seconds to reconsider the scene, then take some more. This the M8, and to a lesser extent the M9, cannot do very well.

 

[uhoh7]

the FPS issue is amusing, but it does have an upside.

With my Sonys I have high speed continuous on always.

With the M9, I just shoot one at a time.

After a shoot, the M9 is so much nicer because there are so few shots. Usually the keeper rate is way higher too.

Makes the PP simple.

The M9 makes you look for the moments. The A7 you spray.

 

[airfrogusmc]

Now you can finally stop telling me that I have no first hand expereince of MM and that I should buy and test it myself, instead on believing reviewers and comments found on internet. You just saved me 7000 euros. Thank you.

And choice is what is great about Leica. It gives photographers like myself a place to go to buy a camera that is different from all the rest out there. A FF B&W only rangefinder that is not try to be anything else. And what I would like to see on the next digital M is for Leica to keep it simple and continue giving us a different choice.

 

[Lss]

And for the M8 at least, I didn't feel that the camera was as fast I could be when shooting film. With film there is no buffer, no hard stop. You can take a few shots, take a few extra seconds to reconsider the scene, then take some more. This the M8, and to a lesser extent the M9, cannot do very well.

A few posts back I pretty much proved this not to be the case. One can argue about details, but the M8 has enough buffer to shoot about a frame per second for 10-20 seconds. After that it slows significantly, but you can still burn a roll of film in a minute. While the camera is not a speed demon, I have never hit the limits in actual use.