The next digital M: When?

[tightsqueez]

I'm not surprised at this and I fully agree. IMO manual focusing with any DSLR (or even SLR's) sucks 100% when compared to rangefinders. That's one of the reasons why I'm hoping that the next my would be without shortcomings. Maybe that will be "the" camera for me.

With many Leica/RF lenses this can still be problematic because of the curvature of field (this is truly where the 50 APO shines in my opinion). I remember when I bought the D800E and the salesman told me, "You don't want one... you'll hate the focus." Still, I've never had any problems with any of the Nikons I've owned and have been pretty smitten using it as a slow-down medium format rig (sorta).

The M9/MM/M240 cameras DO have shortcomings, e.g. reliability, RF adjustment, etc. But... it's all about adapting and overcoming them. The process of doing that has been painful over the years, yet at the same time rewarding. Let's just all hope that in the future Leica can produce cameras that live up to the reputation as their lenses, as you had suggested. Don't get me wrong, my MM and my second M8 (now gone) have been faultless but I can't say the same with a few M9's. As much as I hate the M9 at times it is the only digital camera that produces the colors I agree with. Talk about a curse! Ha ha.

 

[pmu]

So many of us are so wrong and you are so right.

Now I'm going to sign out of this thread and go to enjoy the real life. Ciao.

With many Leica/RF lenses ...

Good info in that post, thanks!

 

[icebear]

....

Now I'm going to sign out of this thread and go to enjoy the real life. Ciao. ....

Try to have some fun 😉. In spiritus sancti et Campari soda, amen :angel:.

 

[airfrogusmc]

LoL Thnaks Klaus.
pmu I say it's time to really live and try one. An M or MM is in order. Just reading about it doesn't quite do them justice.

 

[Rikard]

I have not read the whole thread, sorry about that. I shoot mostly what people refer to as action sport. And a few of my friends are in the same business (Freeskiing, Mtb freeriding, skateboarding etc). Some among the most successful photographers in the world. When we meet over a couple of beers the discussion always starts to be about our different shooting styles. How we chose our composition and how we go about getting the shot. Precomposing the scene, and prefocusing on the spot where the talent will perform are what people do 95% of the time. If you can't prefocus (snow) you just go f8 and use DOF. Where people differ is mostly how they use fps. Some people like to anticipate the action and just fire one frame at a time, others like to spray away. But they we all aknowledge that there are drawbacks with both approaches. A leica style rangefinder is favourable when doing this type of work since you're able to see outside of the frame, so when you have prefocused and precomposed the scene you're able to se when the talent is about to enter the frame and be better prepared. The rangefinder is not at all a bad choice. Sure, the SLR type cameras do have an advantage when it comes to price, convinience of long lenses and macro, but the rangefinder do offer a few benefits which definitivly makes it strong valid player today.

 

[pmu]

I guess the "reading comprehension" comment was out of line. I apologize.

So did you not read all the Nikon d800 hate?

Yes I did, so what's your point? I read all the good and bad reviews and then evaluated them against my needs, wants and the price of the product. And then I bought the D800.

If you listen to any of these negative comments, and they are out there for every camera made, you will not buy anything.

See, everything I wrote, was immediately completely dismissed or not understood 🙄

 

[airfrogusmc]

And you have not been reading all kinds of things into not only my posts but the posts of others.

So I guess what you write seems to be easy to misunderstood..... Ha Ha

One thing I do is weigh the things written against my actual experience with a piece of equipment. I always try and use something for a while before I buy. These so called on line experts are many times VERY wrong because you don't know the real motive behind their reviews.

Again my post from #182 in this thread.

"I have never said how you should shoot. Where do you read this stuff.? I don't care how you shoot or what you shoot with. I hate to pop your bubble but this isn't a thread about YOU. I do know, per your own words, you have never shot with what you seem to know so much about. Now if I wander into a d800 thread and I start talking about stuff I really have little first hand knowledge about I would hope that you show me the error of my ways. So many of us are so wrong and you are so right.

The MM is an EXCELLENT tool. Perfect? Like every camera, no way, but it can certainly capture my vision. Seems to work just fine for Ralph Gibson and many other very good photographers and also really good photographers that post here. As far as digital M there are other many fine photographers that seem to do very good with that EXCELLENT tool. I think both Meyerowitz and Jill Freedman both shoot with M9s. Remember these photographers and myself included can all shoot with whatever we want to shoot with and we choose what we choose because it works for us."

 

[Roger Hicks]

I guess we have different expectations. IMO, the term "good enough" fits to cameras in 100-2000€ price range. When it goes over that, I expect more than that. "very good", "great", "amazing", "perfect" -- those kind of words I am looking for. I would like to be completely amazed about every (limited) aspect and feature of that 6-7K€ camera. I guess I am asking too much.

A tiny example: I have once tried MP. What does that cost, 3K€, or something like that? That is completely horrible price for a 35mm film body, but you know what: the camera felt really perfect. Absolutely everything felt right about it -- the term "good enough" was completely missing, like it should in a product like that. Since then, the price of MP has not felt too big or overpriced. Sure, it's a huge load of money and I would never buy MP new, but the camera really felt much much much better than good enough.

I hope the upcoming M would not be good enough. I hope it would be at least very good, in all aspects.

How about simple test: "good enough to take better pictures than I might otherwise take".

You have a better definition?

Cheers,

R.

 

[pmu]

Yes, it has been too tempting to stay out from the thread. Can't help myself 😉

The MM is an EXCELLENT tool.

OK, to think of it, If Ralph Gibson can use MM, why not me? Maybe you have a point 🙂 I know it can make fantastic pictures, but I have no way of testing it before buying and would like to hear real life experiences and opinions of couple of things regarding MM. I have seen that the image quality is great, so that's OK. No question about it.

1. What kind of battery life you get with a single battery? How many hours? More or less than whole day? Approx. how many images?

2. If one takes, let's say 8 DNG files within 10 second period, does the camera slow down? How long does it take the camera to record all the files? Could you test this?

3. How fast is the camera startup time?

Thanks.

 

[airfrogusmc]

I can shoot usually a job or about day. I always have spare.

I avoid the machine gun approach to photography like the plague so I would never shoot like that. I never have shot like that. EVER.

Start up time is fast enough. I have never really thought about it.

I don't obsess about that stuff. I always have a spare. If the one I'm shooting with goes dead I swap them out just like I would with any other digital camera.

If it were really something that stood out I would notice it. It's not so I don't pay much attention to those things. They're not that important to me.

I do obsess with print quality and the prints that come from the MM are stunning.

 

[pmu]

I avoid the machine gun approach to photography like the plague so I would never shoot like that.

Could you please grab your MM and snap 6 DNG shots as fast as you can and check how many seconds does it take the camera to record all of them (from first shutter press until all 6 are recorded)? What kind of memory card do you use?

 

[airfrogusmc]

I shoot with 32GB sandiscs butI just don't shoot like that and never would. I have no reason to. My work in both professional and personally is way more deliberate than that and if you do work like that then these cameras are probably not for you. There are plenty of machine gun type FPS DSLRs cameras out there that you would be better suited shooting. I'm not taking my camera in the shower or in a deep freeze either. No need to.

 

[pmu]

I shoot with 32GB sandiscs butI just don't shoot like that and never would. I have no reason to.

Yeah, but could you please try that anyway just to give some real life data of the writing speed?

 

[Scrambler]

I shoot with 32GB sandiscs butI just don't shoot like that and never would. I have no reason to. My work in both professional and personally is way more deliberate than that and if you do work like that then these cameras are probably not for you. There are plenty of machine gun type FPS DSLRs cameras out there that you would be better suited shooting. I'm not taking my camera in the shower or in a deep freeze either. No need to.

Airfrogusmc, I think pmu was asking for a favour. I know it hasn't been the friendliest of threads to this point but this does seem to be genuine attempt to see if the camera would suit him. As you say, if it doesn't there are a number of other cameras that will.

 

[jaapv]

Yes, it has been too tempting to stay out from the thread. Can't help myself 😉



OK, to think of it, If Ralph Gibson can use MM, why not me? Maybe you have a point 🙂 I know it can make fantastic pictures, but I have no way of testing it before buying and would like to hear real life experiences and opinions of couple of things regarding MM. I have seen that the image quality is great, so that's OK. No question about it.

1. What kind of battery life you get with a single battery? How many hours? More or less than whole day? Approx. how many images?

2. If one takes, let's say 8 DNG files within 10 second period, does the camera slow down? How long does it take the camera to record all the files? Could you test this?

3. How fast is the camera startup time?

Thanks.

The only answer I can give is #1 : 300-500 images.

To the other two I only have the Rolls Royce response: sufficient.
As I never really took notice, it is not that type of camera.

 

[icebear]

Yes, it has been too tempting to stay out from the thread. Can't help myself 😉

OK, to think of it, If Ralph Gibson can use MM, why not me? Maybe you have a point 🙂 I know it can make fantastic pictures, but I have no way of testing it before buying ....

a) only Ralph Gibson is Ralph Gibson, I guess what he can use doesn't matter too much what you can use or anyone else 🙄. It only is proof that the camera obviously does not limit an accomplished artist to achieve what he has in mind.

b)1. Have you ever heard about Leica MM workshops ? I took part in one because I didn't want to fork out that stupid amount of money before testing the camera. The next day I ordered one.

b)2. Do you have a photo store (brick and mortar) that you have used for years ? If yes, just go there with a valid photo ID and ask to try the MM.

 

[pmu]

The only answer I can give is #1 : 300-500 images.

To the other two I only have the Rolls Royce response: sufficient.
As I never really took notice, it is not that type of camera.

Thanks. I found this in one MM review: "When you shoot over 4-5 single frames continuously, the frame buffer fills up and you’re forced to wait between 15- 30 seconds before it frees up". It sure ain't filled with the greatest buffer or writing speed. That is a bummer. Technically, I guess someone familiar with their film M could shoot faster than anyone with MM 🙂

 

[pmu]

a) only Ralph Gibson is Ralph Gibson, I guess what he can use doesn't matter too much what you can use or anyone else 🙄. It only is proof that the camera obviously does not limit an accomplished artist to achieve what he has in mind.

Hey, I know 😉 Maybe I was just trying to use reverse psychology... I love Ralph Gibson's work, but would not buy MM just because he shoots with one. Actually, I think something essential is missing in his pictures since he moved to digital...

b)1. Have you ever heard about Leica MM workshops ? I took part in one because I didn't want to fork out that stupid amount of money before testing the camera. The next day I ordered one.

b)2. Do you have a photo store (brick and mortar) that you have used for years ? If yes, just go there with a valid photo ID and ask to try the MM.

Option 2 might be possible in couple of months...

 

[Michael Markey]

Thanks. I found this in one MM review: "When you shoot over 4-5 single frames continuously, the frame buffer fills up and you’re forced to wait between 15- 30 seconds before it frees up". It sure ain't filled with the greatest buffer or writing speed. That is a bummer. Technically, I guess someone familiar with their film M could shoot faster than anyone with MM 🙂

I`m curious ... just what is it that you shoot that requires all this speed ?

 

[YYV_146]

I`m curious ... just what is it that you shoot that requires all this speed ?

Speaking for myself, I shoot concerts, and find myself often resorting to short bursts for a single photo with the hands/expression/light looking right.

I also use full burst when focus bracketing moving objects. I start at infinity try to follow the object through its direction of motion...for that FPS does have some use. Just me, though...