Wartime leica?

[marekbjj]

Hello, I have been keeping my eyes peeled for a leica on local listings and I found one that popped up that clearly has a swastika on it. In any case, looking into it it seems that these can be rare - also faked.

I was hoping someone could provide any info on this camera for me? I tried contacting the seller for more information, but they only offered their phone number. I figured I'd check here before I made the trip.

 

[Rob-F]

To the best of my knowledge Leitz Never engraved a swastika on any Leica. Usually they are a sign that the camera is a Russian fake. But yours Seems to be a model III or thereabouts, and may be a real Leica, with the engraving having been added later. Leitz did make some cameras for the German Air Force, and they had a government number engraved on them; but still no swastikas or Reichsadlers!

 

[Rob-F]

I wouldn't buy it, by the way. I'd consider it defaced.

 

[nickthetasmaniac]

To the best of my knowledge Leitz Never engraved a swastika on any Leica. ... But yours Seems to be a model III or thereabouts, and may be a real Leica, with the engraving having been added later.

This is my understanding as well (specifically that Leitz never engraved a swastika on a Leica). However, it seems possible (even likely) that there would have been Nazis at the time (particularly officers), who would have had the engraving done when they purchased the camera.

So not 'genuine' in the sense of being an original Leica product, but potentially still a body with genuine historical interest.

Or it could just be a fake...

 

[Mr_Flibble]

It IS a genuine Leica camera, but as Rob-F stated. Leica NEVER engraved cameras beyond their standard inscriptions and serialnumbers.
Thus, without any provenance , any Nazi or Military engravings on them should be treated with suspicion.

 

[Vince Lupo]

Looks like it’s trying to be a Kriegsmarine (Navy) Leica (which did in fact have the Reichsadler engraved on it). According to Jim Lager in his book, ‘Wehrmacht Leica’, “Determining authenticity of any Kriegsmarine engraving is next to impossible as the Leitz delivery records offer no mention of naval application.” Additionally, “Leica cameras and lenses bearing such markings must be evaluated individually when attempting to determine authenticity.”

The serial number does put it in the general ballpark and the markings are what would suggest Kriegsmarine (the M is for Marine), but my strong suggestion would be to contact Jim Lager. He is a moderator on this site and has his own section - hopefully he is still active within it.

 

[MaZo]

In the book "Leica the first 60 years" by Rogliatti I've seen a list of wartime models and he doesn't mention IIIa among these. My 3 cents

 

[Vince Lupo]

In the book "Leica the first 60 years" by Rogliatti I've seen a list of wartime models and he doesn't mention IIIa among these. My 3 cents

Yeah there were III, IIIa and IIIb models for the Luftwaffe (I used to have a IIIb model). Seems that they started sending Leicas to the Luftwaffe starting in August 1939 (III and IIIa models), but not many of them. From one of the charts in Jim’s book, it looks like serial number batch 338476-338485 were the first cameras sent, on August 26, 1939, which were all IIIa’s. It looks like IIIc’s (which are generally more ‘common’ as far as Luftwaffe Leicas go) first started shipping in May 1940.

 

[p.giannakis]

I can't be sure but the swastika seems to be engraved by laser. I can't see it very well on my mobile phone screen thought.

 

[Out to Lunch]

From the Head Bartender: https://cameraquest.com/luft.htm



"Among the rarest and most sought after Leicas are the Luftwaffe, cameras issued to the Nazi Air Force. The large majority of such cameras are chrome IIIc's, although a few III's, IIIa's and IIIb's have also shown up. A few have also shown up in Grey with a MOOLY motor.

It's been said that several thousand were made for the Luftwaffe, but about 10,000 are for sale! A good engraver can easily add the necessary inventory Fl Number, and "Luftwaffen Eigentun" as well. Beware of fakes. Over the last few years, the Russians have made a cottage industry out of fake Luftwaffe cameras with all kinds of bogus markings. This are easily spotted as fakes if you know Leica -- but a lot of unsuspecting folks thought they were the real thing. ​

After the war MOST Luftwaffe cameras seem to have had their LUFTWAFFE engravings defaced -- anything reminding people of the Nazi's was not especially popular. The cameras illustrated on this page are so defaced. ​

Unscrupulous sellers regularly buy plain wartime vintage IIIC's, probably to engrave them with Luftwaffe or other military engravings. Before you waste your money on a real Leica with fake Luftwaffe engravings, check with Leica to make sure that camera was delivered to the military."

Click on the link for the full text and pictures.

 

[coogee]

Why would you want a camera with a swastika on it, regardless of who put it there?
Maybe a different camera might be more enjoyable? I don’t have any Nazi paraphernalia, not even a Luftwaffe enlarger or a Gestapo light table. My equipment is more benign afaik.

 

[Erik van Straten]

I have a IIIc in grey. I am happy that it has no military markings. It was a civilian camera.

It seems that these cameras were finished in grey paint because the chrome was needed for the manufacture of the engines for the German tanks. So every time I see the camera I think about WW2. Maybe I will sell the camera altough it was only a civilian one.

Erik.

 

[Mr_Flibble]

And aircraft.

The chrome supply was restored pretty much immediately after VE-Day, though. First batch sold to the US Army of the Occupation in the summer of 1945 consisted of chrome-finished Leica IIIc cameras. Ledgers even say they are IIIcK cameras.

 

[Erik van Straten]

Rick, this is the camera.


My wartime IIIc.

I presume this one is also from July 1942.

It still has the original shutter guard.

Erik.

Jim Lagers reaction:

Greetings Erik, IIIc 387599 to Berlin on 20.6.42 as a LOOZS ( body only ).
Camera worn but paint looks very good. Thank you for writing, Jim Lager.

 

[Mr_Flibble]

1942 is really early for grey-paint. Must be one of the first ones. I always assumed grey-paint started in 1943 as I have a couple of 1942 chrome IIIc cameras in my collection (Going by the CameraQuest LTM serial list, which is known to have some errors).

 

[Erik van Straten]

Yes, it is difficult. The camera is in a good working condition - Scherpenborg serviced - but it is hardly usable because the finish is vulnerable. Also the vulcanite is not in the best condition, altough complete. There are two cracks, one of those is hardly visible.

The vulcanite of these grey cameras was also painted, in the same color als the bottom plate and the top cover. From this paint on the vulcanite not much is left on my camera.

The screws are all original, except two in the accessory-shoe. These were very difficult to remove and thus damaged, so Scherpenborg replaced those two in the accessory shoe.

Erik.

 

[Erik van Straten]

1942 is really early for grey-paint. Must be one of the first ones.

Yes, I think only the first hundred or so of those had this style of shutter guard. The first grey camera was - I think - 387501 - but this is a real puzzle, I have to look it up.


Erik.

 

[splitimageview]

Try emailing Jim Lager, he’s been quick to respond to my inquiries.

jlager100 at yahoo

 

[marekbjj]

Sent him a pm on here. Not sure if it's better to email.

 

[Malcolm M]

From what little can be discerned from the photos, it looks like a pukka III or IIIa (Cameraquest lists it as a 1939 IIIa)- the viewfinder window is stepped below the top plate, rather than flush as on a Fed. Check that the rangefinder arm has a roller bearing, rather than a plain shoe. Who knows where the engraving came from, although it looks suspiciously fresh compared to the Leica logo and serial number. If you want it, value it as a straight IIIa with Summar(?) and tape over the engraving unless you’re into WWII re-enactments.