Harry Lime
Practitioner
The special editions were what they were. Special editions that were priced at a premium for collectors. They never constitutied the mainstream of their product line.
What is getting people bent out of shape is that ever since Kaufmann took over he has driven prices in to the stratosphere. This is forcing almost all of their old customer base to have to abandon the tool of their choice for their photographic work, because they can no longer even afford a body, let alone most of the newer glass.
The M system has been my main tool for almost 15 years. I have several M bodies, of which almost half were purchased new, along with several lenses. I mostly shoot for myself, but will also do an occasional job.
Here is some of my work
http://elanphotos.com/ElanFotos/contest_01/index.html
I can't afford to go digital, because I don't have $14,000 to buy two M9 bodies and anyone doing this semi professionally or professionally is going to need at least two.
Historically Leica has never been cheap. But, when I purchased my first M body and lens new from a dealer, it also did not cost me the equivalent of a Honda Civic.
Some people will say to just switch to Nikon or Canon. Would you tell a violinist to switch to a tuba, if suddenly the cost for violins spiraled out of control? We're talking about photography here, not making widgets. If you are serious about it, you eventually develop a personal style and signature and the gear you choose is tailored towards allowing you to realize that vision.
Sure I could switch to a DSLR, but that really is not my tool of choice and not how I have worked for all of these years and not how my brain works. I tried it. Twice. With a 5D and D700. No go. I went back to my film Leicas.
No one is asking Leica to not make high end products, but wouldn't it make sense to have a tiered product line like every other camera company on the planet? Nikon does not only make the $6000 D4. They do offer an alternative. Even if Leica offered an viable alternative to the M9, that cost $4000 all would be forgiven. And just for the record the X2 is not a viable alternative, unless you just plan on taking vacation snaps.
Stefan Daniel once said that those who can't afford a new Leica should just go out and buy a used one. Really? That may have made sense with a film body, where the 'sensor' is upgraded by swtiching the film stock, but is that even a rational suggestion with a digital camera? Would you buy a 6 year old computer for several thousand dollars? The M8 is a buggy mess with a sensor that is at least 6 years old now and never was a stellar performer to begin with. We are not talking about buying a used Nikon D3s, which still is a viable tool for many professionals. The ugly truth is that digital cameras have a shelf life. The march of technology is relentless and unless you are shooting in a vacuum, that is a problem.
Leica management loves to point out their heritage and special connection to photographers. The great irony of course is that nearly all of Leica's beloved Magnum photographers could not have afforded an M9 for most of their careers, and even today, buying the minimum of two bodies for serious work would be a financial challenge for most of them. The hypocrisy is downright comical, but very indicative of the 'let them eat cake' attitude that has developed in Solms in recent years.
So, yes. I think there are some very good reasons why more people are pissed off with Leica then ever before and it's not just sour grapes as some may imply.
newsgrunt
Well-known
I appreciate the lens' ability to resolve corner to corner etc etc but seriously....who is really going to take advantage of this and especially at this price point ?
so in other words, I have better things to spend + $7000 on
so in other words, I have better things to spend + $7000 on
FrozenInTime
Well-known
Wow! thats really great work - as good as the best of HCB and Doisneau.
Don't go digital - it will change your style.
Although this is not specific to the topic, I'll ask anyway:
So, let's say that Leica introduces the M10 at Photokina.
Considering the M9-P and M9-M are $8k and the M9 is $7k...
If they were to keep those skus in the lineup when the M10 is announced, they could have a tiered product line.
What price would the M9 have to be, so you wouldn't be pissed at them?
$5k? $4k? $6k?
And if they drop the M9 in price, they'd also have to drop the price of the M9-P and the just-introduced M9-M...but that wouldn't likely go over very well...
kubilai
Established
Leica officials said that 50 Summilux ASPH is APO design, see :
http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/2008/09/photokina-2008-day-2-taking-it-easy-and.html
http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/2008/09/photokina-2008-day-2-taking-it-easy-and.html
Rotarysmp
Established
I wonder what part of the average german monthly wage a 50/2 cost in 1955?
DRabbit
Registered
I just made a very similar argument in another thread on the topic of price. I think Leica has the right to charge whatever they like, but their prices have risen to the point they are excluding many of their own fans and users who accepted the previously high-but-could-justify prices.
I heard another photographer like you say that he felt like it was getting to the point he had to pay ransom money just to continue to use the tools he enjoys most... and that he has no choice but to give up Leica for that reason (there's no growth/upgrade path). I thought it very well conveyed the sentiment a lot of people feel.
I think it was here that I read someone said an M3 with 50 Summicron cost about $350 in 1954 -- according to an inflation calculator, $350 back then is the same as $2935 today.
bob338
Well-known
It's all relative. Levi's are a status symbol compared to Wranglers in some circles.
Do you really think this Rolex is as unattractive as this G-Shock?? I don't own either, but the Rolex doesn't look unattractive at all to me...
Attachments
MCTuomey
Veteran
Ditto - Having seen it before, I shouldn't have needed the reminder of the quality of your work, Harry. Simply beautiful imaging.
Inappropriately so on my part, but because of your evident talent, I confess to being curious as to what an M9M might do in your hands.
BobYIL
Well-known
Just yesterday I posted in this forum that I bought a 35/1.4 Summilux pre (NIB-official price) for less than the cost of 200 rolls of Tri-X when each was $1.30. (No need for inflation adjustment, how much it makes today?)
Harry Lime
Practitioner
They need a digital CL. I don't even care if it is APS-C.
I work in the movie business and make a good wage. If I can't afford to get in to the M system, then you know something is wrong.
Harry Lime
Practitioner
Thanks you, very kind of you.
But I have an awfully long way to go before I would feel comfortable with my name being mentioned in the same sentence with those two men...
Harry Lime
Practitioner
Thank you.
anaconda
Newbie
I am a working photographer that actually uses Leica camera's and lenses to take photographs, so I don't think I am in Leica AG's target group for this lens.
Lss
Well-known
Perhaps the problem is not Leica and their pricing. Perhaps the problem are all the other camera manufacturers that seem to be utterly incapable of introducing a digital rangefinder camera (in M mount or with an existing or new mount of their own).
And yes, there is the original digital rangefinder Epson R-D1 from 2004. I use one and patiently wait for an upgrade.
steveclem
Well-known
This is the most apposite post written on this subject.
BobYIL
Well-known
Thanks you, very kind of you.
But I have an awfully long way to go before I would feel comfortable with my name being mentioned in the same sentence with those two men...
I simply wonder why one would consider to go digital after accomplishing something like what you exhibit on your site. Salgado admitted of being obliged due to hours spent at the airport check points. As far as know Alex Webb again of the same reasons + transmission convenience; William Albert Allard for being always in the boonies. If you do not feel the same reasons why risk your "quality"?
JayM
Well-known
Pretty much to a T. It feels wrong to essentially lock out many of the people and supporters/customers who their reputation was built on, but still use them for advertising.
Ken Ford
Refuses to suffer fools
I think this illustrates a stumble Leica made in developing and marketing this new lens. If their intent really was to offer a "no compromises" 50, the absolute best they could make, they shouldn't have called it a Summicron. (Yes, I know 'cron is the historic name for f/2.0 Leica lenses.) They should have created a new naming sequence that conveys this goal and separates it out from the rest of the line. Think Toyota > Lexus.