Carl Zeiss Jena Prototypes, Experimental, and Transition Lenses,

Räuber said:
Hey guys, I've got 2 Sonnar 5cm f/1,5 from Japan. Unfortunately I have not much time so have fun evaluating them for me. ;)

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Right hand one looks like a "normal" cottage industry Sonnar to me. Aka something a Zeiss worker (or workers) put together to earn some extra money/food on the side under the table. It's a simplification (it looks as if the lens will rotate due to the two aperture indices) but not a total departure from the official design. Something someone who is at least somewhat familiar with the original would make. (And save material/parts/labor.)

The left one - now that's a proper strange Sonnar. Not only is the lens very deeply recessed (why?) but the rear element appears much too small for a 1.5 Sonnar - it's more akin in diameter for what I'd expect for a f2 Sonnar lens. Also no spanner slots. Also a full turn only gets you to 1.3 meters? Strange.
I assume the screw in the rear is the stopper which will hit the other screw (inserted between 3 and 4 meters, horizontally) to act as a stopper/focus limiter for both infinity and 1.3 meters. If you make the lens do a full turn you only need one stop screw!

With the aperture brought so far forward it serves as a hood. Wonder what that is about.

Also one idea I had for these lenses with "DIY" aperture rings is that unlike the lenses which got converted (Contax > Leica) these might have been factory rejects. So they might never had an aperture or even a proper barrel. And thus the workers needed to improvise.
 
Thank you @TenEleven (y) A lot of those points match with my evaluation. But I will try to give some more details for you all.

3001366 (to the right)
I bought this because I expected a Soviet copy. But it is a German copy probably made by a Zeiss Jena employee.
  • serial is valid (CZJ batch 72 from 1947)
  • unusual LTM Sonnar copy
    • concave rounded aperture grippers are very rare
    • sideways engraved focus scales are unusual and very rare
    • double aperture scales are unusual and very rare for CZJ Sonnars
    • unusual mounting portion, smooth ring below small grip ring
    • mtr engraving is unusual
    • diameter of rear lens is 23.6mm (!!!), it should be 22mm
  • this LTM Sonnar does not resemble authentic CZJ LTM Sonnar 5cm f/1,5
  • aperture scales rotates when lens is focused
  • name ring is authentic Zeiss Jena
  • most of the engraved numbers look very close to Carl Zeiss Jena engravings
    • 3 & 7 look authtic
    • 1 is not authentic and unique (never seen this kind of 1 engraved)
    • 4 is not authentic but looks close to
    • dots ( . ) instead of commas ( , ) engraved
    • engravings do not show Soviet origin or typical German black market origin
The strange mounting portion cause that when this lens is mounted to a Leica camera it looks like the lens is part of the camera. When I got the camera and lens I first thought that someone welded the lens in place. Unfortunately it was screwed with such a force that I had to use a wrench to get it off... After some inspection I came to the same conclusion as TenEleven that this is unlikely a Soviet copy but a remounted post-war Sonnar that was build by a Zeiss Jena employee.

The rear glass is unusual. The diameter is pretty off and there are no other known Sonnar 5cm f/1,5 (or Canon, Nikon, Jupiter) I know of that have a similar rear diameter.

2792054 (to the left)
I bought this because I was hoping to get some hints of the origin of the 5,8cm Sonnar. Unfortunately this one answered no questions at all. 😅
  • serial is valid (CZJ batch 65 from 1942, 100 x Arri mount)
  • very unusual LTM Zeiss copy
    • I have never seen a copy like this before
    • very unusual deep filter hood
    • black arrow as aperture mark, black arrow as focus mark
    • turns till 1.3 meter, almost 360 degree turn
    • diameter of rear lens is 18mm (!!!), it should be 22mm
  • this LTM Sonnar does not resemble authentic CZJ LTM Sonnar 5cm f/1,5
  • very polished metal, very light (144gr)
  • very smooth operation of aperture ring and focus ring
  • name ring is authentic Zeiss Jena
  • most of the engraved numbers look not authentic Carl Zeiss Jena but Zeiss Oberkochen
The rear lens does not look suspiciously small it is. With 18cm it is smaller than all Sonnar 5cm f/1,5 rear lenses. I looked into my measurements of the Sonnar 5cm f2 and even there is no 18mm rear lens mentioned. I think the shape of this rear lens is pretty strange too. I get the impression that someone assembled the lens and reversed the rear element. If you ask me what this means for the optical quality of this lens then I can say that I did some tests.

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As you can see this lens offers a noticeable vignette when wide open. But it is sharp in the center (as good as the better Sonnars), light transmission look like a f1,5 lens.

Who made this strange Sonnar and why? The last part I might be possible to answer. The strange shape with the deep hood and the long focus throw reminds me of the Arriflex Sonnar 5cm. The long throw is advantages for cine lenses. The serial belongs to a Arriflex batch too. This would explain the unusual rear lens diameter too. It seems that the Arriflex Sonnars used a different shaped rear element. (I miss a lot of measurements for Arriflex Sonnars)

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So who made it? Unfortunately I have 2 theories. First, maybe Zeiss Oberkochen or some black market craftsman could have made this lens after WWII. The fonts match the Zeiss Opton engravings and Oberkochen had the tools for this very clean and technical exquisite work. Or was it made in Japan today? The screw in front cap (size 48.5mm) is stamped with JAPAN. I know that some companies exists that rehouse vintage lenses for cine cameras. This one would be absolutely fine for Super 35. Unfortunately it is impossible for me to date this lens. It could be made 1951 or 2022. The housing would not show the age.
 
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milescl said:
Another weird one showed up!

www.ebay.com

Carl Zeiss Jena Nr Sonnar 50mm f1.5 Leica Screw Mount Lens | eBay

Lens has fine scratches, & black dots inside. Serial number 2407275. Sold as is.
www.ebay.com
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This one belongs to a small batch of known fakes in the 2407k range. The serials clash with a batch of Triotar 7,5cm f/3,5. They are mentioned in literature and showed up on Zeiss auctions already. People have insane asking prices for those...

Very interestingly the lens has one of those 6 slot spanner rear retention rings! People investigating the Sonnar 5,8cm will know what I talk about.
 
Räuber said:
This one belongs to a small batch of known fakes in the 2407k range. The serials clash with a batch of Triotar 7,5cm f/3,5. They are mentioned in literature and showed up on Zeiss auctions already. People have insane asking prices for those...

Very interestingly the lens has one of those 6 slot spanner rear retention rings! People investigating the Sonnar 5,8cm will know what I talk about.
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A couple of unordered thoughts from me:

Yes, Arriflex. Of course. I once had a LTM converted 8,5cm Arriflex Sonnar (Thiele had it as Arriflex too) like that. Interestingly enough it used a similar screw stopper scheme, except only for the infinity end. If you continued twisting at the near range you would twist the lens in two. It however did have similarly small rear element. Not as small but smaller than a 8,5cm Sonnar ought to be.

Since that is obviously not field-practical I sold this lens on. Otherwise I would get some pictures for comparison's sake.

Also..

Maybe I am just being extra daft today but I just realized the batch of known fakes has serial numbers starting 2407 ... and the well known (well at least here) SturzVisier Sonnars? Well they start at 1407.... literally a single digit difference and of course neither of these serial numbers is credible within the CZJ numbering as they were already at 2.8million or more by then.

The 4 is also very similar in its engraving style. However the Sturzvisier Sonnar "7" almost always has a serif at its apex, whereas the eBay lens above does not...hmm
 
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Räuber said:
So who made it? Unfortunately I have 2 theories. First, maybe Zeiss Oberkochen or some black market craftsman could have made this lens after WWII. The fonts match the Zeiss Opton engravings and Oberkochen had the tools for this very clean and technical exquisite work. Or was it made in Japan today? The screw in front cap (size 48.5mm) is stamped with JAPAN. I know that some companies exists that rehouse vintage lenses for cine cameras. This one would be absolutely fine for Super 35. Unfortunately it is impossible for me to date this lens. It could be made 1951 or 2022. The housing would not show the age.
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The longer I think about it the more I think it is no modern rehoused lens.
  1. I can't imagine any company that would rehouse a vintage Sonnar today and not engrave their logo or name somewhere on the body. At least not in the last 20 years.
  2. While the lens kept their Cine features it does not make any sense to fit a Leica Thread mount onto it. Using this lens on a Leica would be considered inferior. And there are no Cine cameras with LTM as far as I know. If you would house such a Cine lens today you would give it a modern mount like Arri or even a Leica-M mount. LTM was only a good idea back in the days.
  3. After WWII you could easily make a bug or some packs of cigarettes by rehousing a Arriflex Sonnar ( that only a handful of people would be interested ) into a shiny LTM body for some fancy GIs with their Leicas. The optical quality would be not such important since nobody was so obsessed with vignetting those days. But they were obsessed with brands. And a Zeiss Sonnar on a Leica would get some attention.
 
Agreed lukx, I always found the prototype narrative for this lens to be very dubious.
Everything about it looks very DIY.

Especially so since there are earlier (black and nickel) official LTM prototypes on record in the Thiele and we know that actual lenses matching these numbers exist.
Our @dexdog has one of the 50/1.5 Sonnar. I have a similarly very very early prototype of the 40/2 Biotar. I have also seen a.. I believe it was a Sonnar 135/4 black and nickel in LTM on these forums here. Same prototype series.

In my opinion, there's this prevalent thinking that aluminum means fake or Russian copy; while brass can be nothing but original.
Yet, I have three brass mounted LTM Sonnars (too many, yes) out of which two are 100% not original and are lenses where someone gave a skilled machinist a couple of cigs and a Contax lens and this is what they made.
 
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dexdog said:
That is a very weird lens! I dont recognize the lens mount, is it from a Japanese or European lens?
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www.ebay.com

Leica Leitz Summitar 50mm 5cm F2 Lens Uncoated L39 collapsibe TESTED | eBay

Original Leica Leitz Wetzlar summitar 50mm / 5cm F2. The lens produces amazingly sharp photos if you are looking for a sharp Uncoated copy of this lens this is the correct unit. For more information or pictures just send a DM, it will be answered as soon as possible.
www.ebay.com

Early Summitar was used for the focusing mount. I recognized the IR index. DOF scale matches early Summitar.
 
Sonnar Brian said:
www.ebay.com

Leica Leitz Summitar 50mm 5cm F2 Lens Uncoated L39 collapsibe TESTED | eBay

Original Leica Leitz Wetzlar summitar 50mm / 5cm F2. The lens produces amazingly sharp photos if you are looking for a sharp Uncoated copy of this lens this is the correct unit. For more information or pictures just send a DM, it will be answered as soon as possible.
www.ebay.com

Early Summitar was used for the focusing mount. I recognized the IR index. DOF scale matches early Summitar.
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I think they might have remade or re-done the inner focusing ring with the distances on it.
I'm not a Leitz fan by any stretch, but I think Leitz would rather be dead than be caught with such quality engraving work...
 
I do not have much to write about this particular lens, so I'll just chuck this in here:

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Took a gamble and bought a LTM Tessar 5cm f/2.8. After disassembly it was sadly clear that this lens would not be repairable due to the helical being so worn by use that it wobbled back and forth in the mount by about 1mm which obviously displaces both the rangefinder image and the seat of the lens itself. Even with the heaviest grease I could find it would still by the pressure of the rangefinder roller revert back to its bad state. So, sadly it's not fully usable as-is. After a bit back and forth I got a discount on it and for a sliver under $100 (at current exchange rate) I'll keep it as a historical piece.

The internal construction is quite solid with no stopper screw but two blocks of aluminum hitting each other to delimit focus travel. (Akin to the Summar for example.) The lens also collapses, which I found surprising, also it has its own bespoke focus scale which correctly starts at f/2.8 for this lens. The external appearance is quite similar to the collapsible 5cm f/2 war-time LTM Sonnar. However it just uses a single helical meaning the entire front rotates during focus.

The screws used are slotted screws made from aluminum, just like the mount. The lens being 1.5 million was finished in 1934, likely a bit earlier than the focus mount. But here is where things get a bit surprising. Thiele has this lens as a batch of 2000 being finished in a 24mm Compur shutter. What? I was dead certain I'd find "Contax" under the mount section... but no... very strange.

I should add that it is not possible to transplant the name ring etc. of such a Compur shutter lens into a Contax barrel. I have such a Compur set lens and for laughs tried to insert the front element. I did not get very far. This very obviously won't fit.

IMG_1574 copy.jpg

I have an idea as to the "why" - I assume that these Compur set lenses follow the Leica standard more closely and thus you can get away with a single helical.
But then the question becomes - who and how?
 
Stupid question time. If I were to look for ONE 5cm or 50mm f/1.5 Sonnar formula lens...

Any maker. Any time. Etc.

I just want the _best_ 1.5 for my M240. What should I try to find, Brian?

I'll admit, I'd prefer something I can afford and find but still what would you realistically suggest?
 
I am not Brian, but the answer to your question depends entirely on what you prioritize.

- Is it durability and ease of use? (Having minimal work before use)
In this case the answer would be one of the Japanese Sonnars, in my case the Canon 50/1.5 over the Nikkor 50/1.4 since I always felt the Nikkor was over-stretched at 1.4 and you sort of have to stop down to 1.6/1.7ish depending on your copy before things calm down enough to be useful for mid-distance shots. The Canon, if you can find a clean copy - many, but not all ar hazy - is very close in performance to the pre-war Sonnars, but coated and focuses down to 3 feet on LTM. Lastly, there's also the Jupiter 3+ if you are willing to take a bit more of a gamble. Great lens and you get coupled focus down to 0.7m. However someone is appears to be selling unboxed likely factory rejects on the bay... so whether your sample will work out of the box or not is up to debate.

- Is it authenticity?
Then you would have to opt for a war-time LTM Sonnar. However all of the recent examples are in rather poor shape in my experience and will need work. So plan that into your budget and timing. Also the aluminum focus mount with its dinky stopper screw is not the most durable arrangement. If plan you subject this lens to heavy use it might be better to have it re-mounted into a Jupiter-3 (or even Jupiter 3+ if money is no object!) shell. Due to the initial poor shape and relative fragility, a lot of repair-shops will not accept work on this lens. However, the optical performance is top notch, and the war-time Sonnars have a slightly different look that is not matched by anything else.

- Authentic but with less potential mechanical issues?
An Amedeo (or Orion/Kindai if you're rich) adapter plus any Contax 50/1.5 Sonnar of an era of your chosing would work. Certainly not the cheapest option here, and again you might still need work - these lenses are old and even if the lens is clean god knows what has been done to them WRT focus distance etc. (For example a lot of the copies from Japan have been modified to focus correctly on a Nikon S rangefinder)

- Something affordable?
In that case I would guess a silver 1950ish KMZ Jupiter-3 and modify it yourself following Brians guide to make it work to the LTM standard. Again DIY required. But it would be the cheapest of these options, but will also require the most work and is not something I think any repair shop would accept to do for you.
 
To answer your questions, as I would to Brian (who would already know this from far too many previous times ;) )

Affordable is first. Durable next. Then ease of use.

Authentic is very low priority to me. I care about the image, not so much about the lens.

My gut answer to myself? A Canon 50/1.5 if I can find a clean one.
 
ZM Sonnars have gotten very pricey these days, and to me would rank quite low on that list.

It has chromatic aberration because Cosina (or Zeiss?) optimized away the "filler" fluorite element. Yes you gain one extra degree of freedom and yes the lens gets quite a bit cheaper to make, but fluorite has other amazing properties such as extremely low dispersion, which - you guessed it - eliminates or significantly reduces chromatic error.

CA is a major pet peeve of mine and thus on top of the price, I would not consider the ZM Sonnar. I had one once but sold it on for that and other reasons. Yes it's M-Mount but the lens is also rather large compared to vintage Sonnars, however you still do not get the benefit of close(r) focus.

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