End of 35 mm Cameras

[Toby]

The problem is accountants rule the world. Film appeals to people who understand look and feel rather than an abitrary megapixel number. This is a site where people praise the virtue of 50 year old lenses even though they don't resolve 200 lines per mm. We live in a world where the people know the cost of everything but the value of nothing. A manual camera used with film requires a degree of human endevour to get the best from it *but* sad to say it we live in a world of instant gratification. The average man in the street doesn't want to work for his great photos, he doesn't want to wait an hour for developing -instant is 'better'; instant coffee, TV dinners, the pattern was long established before digital photography. Camera companies want to apply the PC model to photography. In other words ideally your camera should be obsolelete before you get it out of the box and within a year it should be an ashtray. Camera companies have no incentive to produce cameras which last 20 years. This is a society that all of us in the west have participated in since the 19th century, the loss of film is just a small symptom of a larger disease. Let's shoot some film and stick it to the man! 😀

 

[ErnestoJL]

The instant gratification concept is something many people wants, irrespective of what is the quality of what they get "fast". Then fast food, and so many other things that wouldn´t deserve a second look. Kind of no thinking... i guess....
It reminds me when digital wristwatches had their time... they were better than mechanical watches, cheaper, had lots of added functions.... and lots of people, (me included) bought one. Later, the same people slowly got back to the roots, it is hand showing the time, and a little later back to automatic watches. Today, I find that too many people is complaining about that they need battery replacement, so automatic watches again have a niche were to survive. Otherwise, Seiko, Citizen, Orient and some other traditional swiss makers won´t be doing what they do.
I hope that there´ll be many people like Us who still push a mechanical button to get pictures for a long time. I don´t know if the kind of cameras we like would be or not manufactured again in the future, most probably not, but there is still some interest in them, and lots of people are taking a second look over this cameras. Otherwise, ZI, CV and Leitz wouldn-´t be doing what they do today.
Ernesto

 

[GeneW]

It reminds me when digital wristwatches had their time... they were better than mechanical watches, cheaper, had lots of added functions.... and lots of people, (me included) bought one. Later, the same people slowly got back to the roots, it is hand showing the time, and a little later back to automatic watches.

When digital watches became a big thing, a professor I knew made an observation I've never forgotten:

The problem with digital watches is they tell you what time it is. What you want to know is how much time is left ...

Something you can tell at a glance with an analog watch face, but not with a digital.

Gene

 

[ch1]

When digital watches became a big thing, a professor I knew made an observation I've never forgotten:



Something you can tell at a glance with an analog watch face, but not with a digital.

Gene

Gene,

Precisely (more or less). 🙂

Your comment is directly "on point". Just because it's new, doesn't mean it's better.

Not to say the opposite, often it's true. After all, we are "talking through the web".

But as you noted with those "digiwatches" - sometimes technology can be "stupid".

Not sure how this "thread" got resurrected but, just like the digiwatches, the garbage piles of the world are going to become filled with cheapo digital cameras that were rendered obsolete (usually monthly - sometimes weekly).

Film is dead - long live film. Anyone want to start a "boutique" film company? Done correctly, we will make a fortune.

BTW: those same landfills that hold all those digiwatches do not contain any Rollex analogs! 😛

 

[Aardvark Aallen]

Toby, you write well as usual you've got a point. Don't start me up puhleeezz. Disposable/instant / number crunching what a world.

Three major markets have driven digital photography, the internet, professional photographers and home camera point and shoot users. Home users for all the obvious reasons, have computers so they save time by downloading and printing or emailing shots. The internet for all the reasons we know and are at this website among just a few. Professional photographers because the print and electronic mediums want digital images. That's where the world is today technologically speaking.

Amateurs are all that use this stuff and art photographers who want to use special printing processes. Still these markets are growing in real numbers there are more people using film today than ever before. The problem is the giant film companies are crumbling because they cannot continue growing at the velocity they used to and people unload the shares because they too are not performing which leads to layoffs, downsizing etc.

Find a couple of small quality film and paper producers and support them. The giants will be selling the rights to them for lots of their marginal products soon. We won't disappear.

 

[ErnestoJL]

Gene,

Not sure how this "thread" got resurrected but, just like the digiwatches, the garbage piles of the world are going to become filled with cheapo digital cameras that were rendered obsolete (usually monthly - sometimes weekly).

Film is dead - long live film. Anyone want to start a "boutique" film company? Done correctly, we will make a fortune.

BTW: those same landfills that hold all those digiwatches do not contain any Rollex analogs! 😛

Think that someone placed the finger in the right spot!

No one of Us will never see a pile of junk made of metal built mechanical cameras... properly used, they will survive a lot, even as only a collector´s item, what cannot be said of any of the cheap digicams made by zillions we have today.

I guess that what most of Us is trying to do, is to keep ourselves able to decide what to do after thinking what kind of picture do we want to have in the end of the chain, not leaving a preprogrammed silicon chip decide if mom´s face will be just a white spot over a nice green grass background, or worst, getting a blurred picture just because the mode selection confirmation button wasn´t pressed...

Would HCB if alive, use a digicam??

I guess he wouldn´t.

Ernesto. :bang:

 

[ch1]

Think that someone placed the finger in the right spot!

No one of Us will never see a pile of junk made of metal built mechanical cameras... properly used, they will survive a lot, even as only a collector´s item, what cannot be said of any of the cheap digicams made by zillions we have today.

I guess that what most of Us is trying to do, is to keep ourselves able to decide what to do after thinking what kind of picture do we want to have in the end of the chain, not leaving a preprogrammed silicon chip decide if mom´s face will be just a white spot over a nice green grass background, or worst, getting a blurred picture just because the mode selection confirmation button wasn´t pressed...

Would HCB if alive, use a digicam??

I guess he wouldn´t.

Ernesto. :bang:

Ernesto,

Thank you.

But there is one "fly" in my ointment.

And that is keeping film tech "alive" for new generations.
It will be a very tought (and perhaps unwinnable) battle to convince enough future "pro-am" photographers that film is a better avenue for artistic expression.

Film is indeed "dead" when it comes to mass consumer "picture taking". The challenge is to find a marketable level of demand for film as an afficianado's "artistic" endeavor.

This is what I meatn by identifying a "boutique market niche".

The challenge is - how do we nurture a sustainable level of "desire" for film photography given that it will NOT be based on mass consumption?

The "majors" (i.e. Kodak) are going to have to abandon film (their stockholders will demand that they do so - Big K is a very "troubled" company). Maybe one (hopefully more that one) major will survive (e.g. Fuji?).

But 35mm film will necessarily have to become a "niche" industry. Hopefully, at a level that will sustain future techonlogical research and advances.

 

[ErnestoJL]

You´re right copake_ham.
35 mm film is going to be soon something that companies like the bigs F and K would abandon soon as their stockholders cry enough regarding profits. I know that film photography will come to an end unless something happens very soon. One thing that can be done is to increase the film demand from the general public, be it B&W or colour.
IMO, one way to demonstrate that there is some interest in it (and generate some more) is to show to other people the pictures we make, and tell them how they were made.

After showing my pictures to some friends of mine, it was easy to convince them to bring back to life some old cameras they have, what they did. Then, they will need film ... and all this is because some people want to show everyday things in a different way: theirs.

As long as we can do anything that would bring old film cameras back to life, there will be the need for film. This will (hopefully) make some small manufacturer to think about a specialized market of amateurs able to pay boutique prices for something rare and special.

Ernesto

 

[dmr]

Film is indeed "dead" when it comes to mass consumer "picture taking".

Agreed with one reservation -- the disposable pre-loaded point and shoot. Just a few hours ago in a Las Vegas gift shop I noticed that there was more shelf space given to disposables than to roll film. Those disposables aren't just a cardboard box with a hole in the front anymore. Some of them almost look like real cameras, and yes, I've noticed various tourista types using them -- LOL -- even for night shots. 🙂 🙂 🙂

The "majors" (i.e. Kodak) are going to have to abandon film (their stockholders will demand that they do so - Big K is a very "troubled" company). Maybe one (hopefully more that one) major will survive (e.g. Fuji?).

I get the impression that YellowBoxCorp is in the mode of many corporations, their management chaotically pushing buttons hoping for something, anything, that will drive their current period's numbers higher.

I also get the impression that GreenBoxCorp is much more enthused about the film side of the business.

 

[photogdave]

Hello,
I've been lurking for a while, but after reading this thread I'm compelled to say something!
Everyone has had some interesting, well-informed points. I work at a professional camera shop in Canada (not telling which one) and in our market digital has definitely superceded film in all-over sales. The last brand-new professional SLR I remember selling was a Canon EOS 1 about 2 years ago. We sell a couple of consumer SLRs a month. We only stock one consumer P&S (Olympus Stylus Epic 😀) We sell used SLRs every single day, and a fair bit of used MF. It's extremely rare to move any new MF equipment, and Leica RF is very slow too. We sell bucketloads of DSLRs - more so than P&S digicams. We have consolidated our film stock and got rid of one fridge.
Do I think 35mm film is dead? NO WAY!
Get ready to smile - Our sales of new Voigtlander Bessas and lenses is very healthy - outselling every other film camera. Many of our pro customers still shoot film exclusively and many more shoot both - whatever the job demands! The majority of our "enthusiast" customers are still with film too.
The last couple of years have seen new emulsions from Kodak and Fuji. It's easy for them to produce so it doesn't seem likely they'll stop, but it's definitely getting more expensive.
Most interesting to me is noticing how mostly older photographers are abandoning film, while the students and upcoming pros seem more facinated with it than ever. I agree with those who predict film and chemical processes are going to be a niche market, but what a lovely niche to be in!

 

[taffer]

As I mentioned sometime somewhere, and at least for my experience here, B&W and slide film WERE already almost dead for the vast majority of the consumer market since long ago.

In that regard, thing hasn't changed much 🙂

 

[Toby]

It's interesting to see voigtlanders doing well - I wouldn't mind guessing they're an affordable second camera system to a pro DSLR -leica take note!

 

[Bertram2]

This is a society that all of us in the west have participated in since the 19th century, the loss of film is just a small symptom of a larger disease. Let's shoot some film and stick it to the man! 😀

A disease one can call it indeed, in any case it's a very basic system fault.
The "throw-away-and-buy-new" period begins each time a market is saturated the first time, and from then on the innovation cycles must get accelerated more and more if you want to keep your market grow. Technical progress is the fuel you need for the acceleration.
Necessarily things which are thought for a shorter period to last must lose worth,
the shorter the period gets the more they lose .
So far it is no exaggeration to say that in our electronic and digital age something is obsolete from the moment on you have bought it.
Indeed the companies try to get the next generation ready for market while you believe to be on top of the current technology with that thingy you bought yesterday.

And since a long time already the members of this society have internalized that it is important to be "modern" , to own always the very latest thing , otherwise you are considered as a loser who could not make "IT".

What happens now with digital is the S.O.S (Same OLd S**T). we had it already when the P&S hype enlarged the photo market by including all those who had used Instamatics before, and when the SLRSs were more and more computerized, promising that now aunt Ida could make art with such a wonder thing.
The market is built up new now with digital, you can sell a P&S again for €uro 600.- and consumer SLRs for Euro 1500,- no prob.

The aspect of a instant result with digital is of course important too in times we are so accelerated that we ain't got time to eat decently. But the driving basic principle is still the same, as you said , from the 19th century on.

BTW that means also that you guys out there with your 50yo film cameras , you are a bunch of subversive antii-capitalitic elements ( not to speak of the FSU gear owners extremely suspicious !!) and if you don't learn soon the worth of "progress" you saboteurs will land in a re-education camp where you got taught (consumer) manors ! Ouch, ouch, ouch... ! 😀 😀 😀

Bertram

 

[Andy K]

I apologise if his has already be posted elsewhere on RFF.

Ilford are proposing to produce new stock, for example a Delta 25 film. They are also producing new chemicals and may bring back postcard paper.

How do I know this? There is a member of the Ilford management team who has been replying to questions regarding product availability over on APUG. See the relevant thread here. Apologies to Jorge for posting a link to another site, but hey, we're all photographers, right?

I saw in this thread someone mention the environmental impact of film production. That is nothing compared to the environmental impact of the chemicals used in the production of computer chips and CCDs.

 

[Gabriel M.A.]

In other breaking news, paper will cease to be used in the office, now that computers can be used to send documents from one place to another, from one person to another. We expect to see the usage of paper dramatically decrease to the point where it will in a few years be declared obsolete. 🙄

 

[nwcanonman]

SNIP.........

I saw in this thread someone mention the environmental impact of film production. That is nothing compared to the environmental impact of the chemicals used in the production of computer chips and CCDs.

......................
OR the tons chemicals used on mega-acres of golf courses, which are beautiful to photograph on film (note the tie-in?) 😀

 

[Beniliam]

Paco Rabanne said in 2000 that one russian satellite (MIR) would fall on Paris...and the world would finish. These commentaries have the same validity... Always will be exist visionaries

 

[Beniliam]

Paco has a good taste

 

[Uncle Bill]

Hello,
I've been lurking for a while, but after reading this thread I'm compelled to say something!
Everyone has had some interesting, well-informed points. I work at a professional camera shop in Canada (not telling which one) and in our market digital has definitely superceded film in all-over sales. The last brand-new professional SLR I remember selling was a Canon EOS 1 about 2 years ago. We sell a couple of consumer SLRs a month. We only stock one consumer P&S (Olympus Stylus Epic 😀) We sell used SLRs every single day, and a fair bit of used MF. It's extremely rare to move any new MF equipment, and Leica RF is very slow too. We sell bucketloads of DSLRs - more so than P&S digicams. We have consolidated our film stock and got rid of one fridge.
Do I think 35mm film is dead? NO WAY!
Get ready to smile - Our sales of new Voigtlander Bessas and lenses is very healthy - outselling every other film camera. Many of our pro customers still shoot film exclusively and many more shoot both - whatever the job demands! The majority of our "enthusiast" customers are still with film too.
The last couple of years have seen new emulsions from Kodak and Fuji. It's easy for them to produce so it doesn't seem likely they'll stop, but it's definitely getting more expensive.
Most interesting to me is noticing how mostly older photographers are abandoning film, while the students and upcoming pros seem more facinated with it than ever. I agree with those who predict film and chemical processes are going to be a niche market, but what a lovely niche to be in!

Thank you for saying this! I go into a few camera stores and I am regarded as some subversive freak for not packing a DSLR. You based in Toronto?

Bill

 

[djon]

I've resisted serious digi cameras for several years, knowing something credible would eventually be introduced. Nikon D200 has my attention, but I probably won't have the cash next year. I'd take the Pentax seriously (because of its viewfinder) except for the lack of wide lenses. I don't think we'll ever see a digital rangefinder, but we'll see a 10mp APS this month from Sony...problem is, it's shaped like a Klingon space ship, the lens is physically too long (who needs that much lens?) and it doesn't even have a tube viewfinder.