ramosa
B&W
we can always persuade ourselves to believe something--and such can either encourage a purchase or help diminish post-purchase dissonance.
edodo
Well-known
the RF kit compactness resides it the volume of the whole kit (bodies+lenses). Wide angle, fast lens and AUTOFOCUS reflex wonder makes it very big compared to the tiny basic rf kit.
Bike Tourist
Well-known
Well, it's blasphemy to say this on RFF, but the D700 is flat out the best camera I've ever had (at least for me) and that list includes many Leicas, Hasselblads, Pentax 6 x 7, other Nikons and all those departed picture machines, the names of which I don't even remember. My one gripe is the same for almost all digitals . . . I hate to clean the low pass filter!
(So I don't do it very often.)
(So I don't do it very often.)
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
I'd say that a 35mm f/1.2 is NOT what is necessary to put the M8 on a lower light even playing field with the D700. Yeah, the D700 has great low light sensitivity but try hand-holding any slr longer than 1/15 second. I regularly handhold my rangefinder cameras down to 1/4 second. This is why we can still walk around cities at night with super compact 35mm f/2 lenses (or smaller/slower ones) than then the weight factor is far greater. Swap that CV 35mm f/1.2 for a pre ASPH 35mm Summicron, UC-Hexanon or Canon 35 f/2 lens & watch that weight drop by another 1/4lb at least.
Phil Forrest
Phil Forrest
ramosa
B&W
Dick: cleaning filters! i agree. but actually--somehow--i have come to dislike filter cleaning much less than i did a couple years ago. i suspect this change has less to do with improved patience than improved filter cleaners (e.g., visible dust).
pharyngula
Established
I own both a D700 and M8.2 and enjoy shooting with both. The "feel' of each is certainly different but the ergonomics of the D700 are outstanding for my hand(s) and among the best of any "pro/prosumer" body dSLR I've held. I shoot primarily with primes and the 85/1.4 is my heaviest. I find it very comfortable - I assume you are exaggerating with your 1/15 sec comment; I routinely use my D700 with 85 or 50/1.4 (and likely 24/1.4 in future) as a walk around in the evenings taking hand held shots that I couldn't make with the lighter M8/Cron 35 (even with Thumbs Up, soft release and other tricks).
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Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Richard,
That's true and that's another compromise that I was forced into ... selecting a lens based on it's speed more than it's focal length. My ideal length for these gigs is 35mm and the one occasion I tried to use my 25mm Biogon it was a disater at f2.8. Of course in a perfect world a 24mm f1.4 Sumilux would have fallen out of the sky and maybe the M8 would have sufficed for a little longer ... I do like the way a rangefinder operates in this environment ... it's very subtle!
This post was based on the the suprising revalation that my replacement setup will only be fractionally heavier than what I had been using. I had assumed the DSLR and lens of choice would be a lot hevier than the M8 and Nokton ... which it's not obviously.
To the RF faithfull,
The hand holdability of an M8 along with the fact that it can fit into ones pocket has little to do with the premise of my post ... this is purely about what will be hanging from my neck strap ... if people want to bang on about the obvious advantages (which I don't disagree with) that a rangefinder has over a DSLR they do it by their own volition but we've read it all before in numerous threads so maybe they can save their energy and read what I'm actually saying!
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Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
I've looked really hard to find those statements in any of my posts in this thread and I'm not having much luck ... maybe you can help me out here?
At 620 grams, the new Nikkor 24/1.4G is not a lightweight, but it weights a lot less than any of the Nikkor pro zooms, and balances very nicely on the D700. The outstanding performance of the lens wide open combined with the high ISO performance of the D700 means you can be shooting in almost complete darkness and still get hand holdable shutter speeds. Amazing combo for sure
I concur! i think Keith has developed brass balls
the d700, with its high ISO, does in many ways completely undermine the necessity for very fast lenses a la, the best of the leica M rigs...unless every shot is of coffee cups and ultra short dof is required
sooner or later i expect roger to be employed to relate his opinion about ash trays, but there ya go
x2. though i don't know about the brass balls .... i think Keith just finally saw the light (ducks and runs for cover)
:angel:
Rob-F
Likes Leicas
In my case the comparison I made was not M8 to D700 (I did consider the D700 though), but M8 to D300. I chose the D300 for a lot of reasons. Yes it is heavier than an M8 (You don't have to use a heavy lens on the M8--or on the D300 for that matter). I like the D300 best with a prime lens that is not too heavy or bulky, like the 24/2.8 AF-D, 35/2 AF-D, 50/1.4 AF-D, or my 18mm AI. The weight of the camera is offset by the very comfortable grip that offers a large surface area. The controls are placed just right. I don't need funny filters. The camera knows what lens is on it, if it's a CPU lens; or else it's easy to enter the information. On the D300 you assign a code number, 1 through 9, for up to 9 non-CPU lenses. To tell the camera which lens you have put on, you hold down a button and turn the dial until that lens and its code appears on the top LCD panel. No sending lenses back to Germany for coding. 100% accurate finder, no matter the focal length, from extreme wide to extreme telephoto. Stunning high-ISO performance, better than the M8. Live view. Some lenses are better than others, but some Nikkors are outstanding.
For me, it was important to hold down the weight by avoiding heavy lenses. That 20-35mm f/2.8 hurt my neck. I had to get rid of it.
Even with all that, it was hard to give up the idea of shooting with the compact, discreet M8. There are times when I'm sure I'll want an M8 instead. But we all must make choices, and must live with the consequences!
For me, it was important to hold down the weight by avoiding heavy lenses. That 20-35mm f/2.8 hurt my neck. I had to get rid of it.
Even with all that, it was hard to give up the idea of shooting with the compact, discreet M8. There are times when I'm sure I'll want an M8 instead. But we all must make choices, and must live with the consequences!
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popeye
Established
I think respect is required when responding to such posts, cameras are like guns, many are designed and built for a variety of needs. Few, if any cover all of said needs.
That said i desired an M8 as I have some M lenses and enjoy the feel of and technique required of an RF camera, so I now have one waiting for me. I also like the Pentax dSLR with me now for it's abilities and would have sprung for a D700 or 300 have I had the additional funds and furthermore reason to take the plunge. Alas I have neither of these at the moment so the Pentax will soldier on.
To the OP, I see no reason for you to address the RF faithful with your reasoning, you have a need so by all means fill it and enjoy the day with the photos you hope to create!
That said i desired an M8 as I have some M lenses and enjoy the feel of and technique required of an RF camera, so I now have one waiting for me. I also like the Pentax dSLR with me now for it's abilities and would have sprung for a D700 or 300 have I had the additional funds and furthermore reason to take the plunge. Alas I have neither of these at the moment so the Pentax will soldier on.
To the OP, I see no reason for you to address the RF faithful with your reasoning, you have a need so by all means fill it and enjoy the day with the photos you hope to create!
blimey
Established
has been beaten to death...
best to leave the subject alone. it's a matter of preference. d700 is nice but hobbyist like me has tried the dslr route. it's time for a change and rf seems interesting enough to try... as always, photography is one expensive hobby but which isnt?! in my plethora of hobbies...
and OP, if youre bothered by some fanboy saying "Oh but those DSLR's and particularly the D700 are just so heavy!" then you my friend just sank to the level of a fool. he pretty much beat you with experience of being a fool.
best to leave the subject alone. it's a matter of preference. d700 is nice but hobbyist like me has tried the dslr route. it's time for a change and rf seems interesting enough to try... as always, photography is one expensive hobby but which isnt?! in my plethora of hobbies...
and OP, if youre bothered by some fanboy saying "Oh but those DSLR's and particularly the D700 are just so heavy!" then you my friend just sank to the level of a fool. he pretty much beat you with experience of being a fool.
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Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
For ferk's sake this thread wasn't about which camera system was better .... they are both very fine systems in their own right!
I'm fortunate in having both options and I was comparing weights mainly for interest's sake!
I give up ... anyone who's taken offence at this harmless partly tongue in cheek hypothesis, accept my apology ... I'm outa here!
I'm fortunate in having both options and I was comparing weights mainly for interest's sake!
I give up ... anyone who's taken offence at this harmless partly tongue in cheek hypothesis, accept my apology ... I'm outa here!
menos
Veteran
I guess, you confuse the tiny D700 charger with the D3 double charger?
The D700 charger is as compact and light as the new Leica charger.
Keith, I am fully with you regarding the usefulness of a FF Nikon compared to a digital M.
In so many regards they are simply worlds better than the Leica M.
I use a Nikon D3 next to some Leica M.
There is simply no contest, when the light goes down or subjects move quickly.
Nikon has a very, very big head start, which could be achieved during the time, Leica was busy, deciding its business plan for the next decades during the 80's, 90's and finally woke up again in the late first decade after millenium.
As much, as I love the M and RF cameras for less bulk, less weight, manual operation and the magnificsent Leica glass, I must say, that for some work, it simply makes no sense, to force yourself into a system.
Keith, enjoy either camera for what it's best - your post makes sense (although potentially presented to the wrong audience ?
).
nobbylon
Veteran
Keith,
the second you mention anything here that remotely suggests that a Leica's perseved advantages are not all they seem to be, then the Leica police turn up, arrest you and throw you into the forgotten cells in Solms! You know it, I know it, plenty of others know it. The D700 is the low light weapon of choice when you need to get reasonable images.
And to the poster re the hand held below 1/15. have you used a D700? I doubt it otherwise you would know that hand held shots are perfectly possible and razor sharp at 1/4 sec!
the second you mention anything here that remotely suggests that a Leica's perseved advantages are not all they seem to be, then the Leica police turn up, arrest you and throw you into the forgotten cells in Solms! You know it, I know it, plenty of others know it. The D700 is the low light weapon of choice when you need to get reasonable images.
And to the poster re the hand held below 1/15. have you used a D700? I doubt it otherwise you would know that hand held shots are perfectly possible and razor sharp at 1/4 sec!
Just a minor point, but the way I read it I thought Sebben was referring to the original M8 "brick" charger
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
I'm not saying they are impossible, but hand-holding any SLR below about 1/15 second is very difficult due to the body's natural sway and the inability to use a point in the viewfinder for reference as we do with a rangefinder. With the SLR blackout, it's impossible to have that reference without putting an accessory VF in the shoe or looking over the top of the camera and picking up a point at the body and lens to use as the reference to stay still.
I have no problem with the D700 at all, I lusted over one for a while but I have no cache of Nikon lenses so I stuck with Leica. I was just saying that comparing a D700 with a moderate sized prime to an M8 with one of the largest and heaviest primes available was not really fair. If that's the case, we can compare the D700 using the 45mm GN f/2.8 at high ISO against the M8 with a 50 'Lux and still the D700 will win in certain areas. It might even be lighter in that configuration.
Phil Forrest
I have no problem with the D700 at all, I lusted over one for a while but I have no cache of Nikon lenses so I stuck with Leica. I was just saying that comparing a D700 with a moderate sized prime to an M8 with one of the largest and heaviest primes available was not really fair. If that's the case, we can compare the D700 using the 45mm GN f/2.8 at high ISO against the M8 with a 50 'Lux and still the D700 will win in certain areas. It might even be lighter in that configuration.
Phil Forrest
nobbylon
Veteran
Phil,
I think we should all just use what we like to use and what get's us the pics we want. There is no perfect camera, well not yet anyway. The size of the camera is I think the main consideration to me. I can walk around with my m6 and 35 cron with hood attached and fit it in my jacket pocket. I can't do that with any slr I've had. However if I want low light shots I use my D700. No contest with anything else I've used apart from a D3!
As a side note on weight, I had a look at a friends 5d mkii with a 50 1.8 and I thought it was a lot lighter than my D700.
I think we should all just use what we like to use and what get's us the pics we want. There is no perfect camera, well not yet anyway. The size of the camera is I think the main consideration to me. I can walk around with my m6 and 35 cron with hood attached and fit it in my jacket pocket. I can't do that with any slr I've had. However if I want low light shots I use my D700. No contest with anything else I've used apart from a D3!
As a side note on weight, I had a look at a friends 5d mkii with a 50 1.8 and I thought it was a lot lighter than my D700.