M9 in 2010. Target price same as m8.2

I bought all of my M gear used, and the M8 was the first new item from Leica I ever bought. Not rich either. At the time, another pro friend of mine said I was nuts for buying the M8. I think not in that a New Nikon or Canon with pro glass (I had at the time a 28mm Elmarit, 35mm Summicron, 50mm Summicron, 90mm Tele Elmarit, 135mm Elmarit with eyes, and 280mm Tele Elmarit) would have cost me more than holding on to what have been using since 1990. Also, my Leica glass has increaed in value since 1990 when I started buying lenses. Nothing I own made in Japan has done so, with the exception of my Fuji GSW 690.

I also HATE modern DSLR design. I would rather have seen a digital version of a Nikon F3 than all this LCD menue with buttons that have a million functions I will never use. So here, for me, the M8 was the only logical choice, even though it was $4,750 at the time. a choice made out of being practical, frugal, and what I like in camera design that helps me taking photographs much faster. I only wish there was a Digital Rangefinder selection to choose from. The sensor chip is the big thing here. If I do not want a solid cast metal body, but a camera built more like a Pentax 645 N or Fuji Rangefinder, I should have that choice, especially knowing the camera technology changes with blinding speed.
 
Spoks said:
[.......]

Not only that, then the S2 and the M9 would be squeezed out of the door at the same time. No small job for a small company like Leica. Could it be that a mock-up of the M9 will be shown this year? With a launch next year? A M9 launch this year seems unlikely to me.

10,000 $ is a lot of money for a camera, but it matches the prices of the latest Leica glass. Like the two 6,000 $ items, 21 mm 1,4 Asph and 24 mm 1,4 Asph. Sales tax included, the M9 will amount to € 8,500 in most countries here in Europe. Which will leave it untouchable for most ordinary consumers. While professional photographers with their own business can deduct this sales tax and get away with buying a M9 for € 7.400.[......]

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I might add to that that Leica is working overtime to cope with the demand for the new lenses, both Summiluxes, the 18 and the small 24. The waiting lists are rapidly growing and are in the range of six weeks now. Yes - we are talking about quite expensive gear, but even in times like this, quality sells. I have even heard about photographers buying an M8.2 to be able to use the Summilux 21....

Anyway, speaking for myself, I will not be buying this hypothetical M9. The M8, apart from being the most inspiring camera I ever owned, is still a challenge. I have yet to hit the limits of its possibilities. Any " upgrade" would be nonsense. I have earmarked my budget for next year for the successor to the DMR ;)
 
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Steve Ash said:
I bought all my Leica gear new although I do not encounter myself as being rich. It was just a matter of priorities.

How many of your friends drive a motorbike for fun not being really rich people? The husband of my wife's friend owns a Harley although he can hardly feed the family. I know quite a few people who own a watch beyond the price level of a Leica M system (e.g. M8 plus 2 lenses) with an estimated net salary below 3000EUR per month. If you buy a new middle class car you will easily loose an M system in the first two years.
About every third marriage get divorced. Much more expensive than the Leica M...thus tease your wife.:D

This list could be continued for ever but I think it is already sufficient to give you an idea why I could afford the M system. :angel:

Kind regards
Steve
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Dear Steve,

While your examples seem a little, shall we say, extreme, I have no doubt that your basic premise is exact. An awful lot of people don't set their own priorities. They inherit them from their parents, or (especally in England) buy them with their daily paper. Anything, in fact, rather than THINK about what's important to them: about what they really need, and what they really want.

For example, a reliable car is necessary or most of us, unless we live in a big city with first-class public transport and rarely leave that city, but a shiny new car probably falls into the category of 'want' or 'think they need to maintain the illusion of status'.

Now, I'd rather have an M8.2 than this year's car. My priorities. But I can't help feeling sorry for people who think their priorities are better than mine. I'm happy for them to waste their money their way (I see it as waste). Why can't they handle the idea that I prefer to waste my money my way (they see it as waste)?

Possibly because they're frightened of taking responsiblity for their own lives, or making their own choices?

Of course, the way I earn my living frightens many people. Many say, "I wish I could live like you, with all the latest kit to test, and lots of travel."

Then you tell them that there's no regular salary cheque, and you stay in the cheapest hotels you can find, and eat picnics because you can't afford a good restaurant every night, and they lose interest. In the words of an ancient proverb, which I believe to be Spanish, "Take what you want, and pay for it, saieth the Lord."

Tashi delek,

R.
 
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I bet the M9 will be great, but until I see one for a price I feel like paying for it, it's a big world out there with lots of photos to be made instead of living a life of speculation.

It had better not need an IR cut filter though, that is a deal killer for me.
 
What I am hoping for is that the price of 2.hand Leica M8 shall hit a price level of just bellow $ 4,000. The M8.2 cost $ 6,500 new in the shops over here, included a hefty 20% sales tax. € 8.500 - or close to $ 12,000, for a M9, sales tax included, is far beond my means. Regardless of priority.

Olsen has a large collection of Canon gear and buys the heftiest 1Ds-cameras whenever they come out. In addition he has a large Leica gear collection, including a Noctilux he hardly use, several Hasselblads etc. He's got two homes, two cars, owns a large forest property in Sweden, and so on. He even has a lawyer write his tax statement. He had a Ferrari a few years back. He sold it because his wife couldnt stand all the attention it gathered. For him, money is no issue. That's the sort of customer that Leica is targeting.
 
Hmm... I have a lot of Leica gear, I'm comfortably off but certainly not rich, and above all I love photography. I have always flattered myself that I'm a "normal" Leica customer.
Don't let sour grapes colour your opinions.....
 
Spoks said:
What I am hoping for is that the price of 2.hand Leica M8 shall hit a price level of just bellow $ 4,000. The M8.2 cost $ 6,500 new in the shops over here, included a hefty 20% sales tax. € 8.500 - or close to $ 12,000, for a M9, sales tax included, is far beond my means. Regardless of priority.

Olsen has a large collection of Canon gear and buys the heftiest 1Ds-cameras whenever they come out. In addition he has a large Leica gear collection, including a Noctilux he hardly use, several Hasselblads etc. He's got two homes, two cars, owns a large forest property in Sweden, and so on. He even has a lawyer write his tax statement. He had a Ferrari a few years back. He sold it because his wife couldnt stand all the attention it gathered. For him, money is no issue. That's the sort of customer that Leica is targeting.
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Roger,

you see, I already exaggerated my examples to extremes but nevertheless he did not get the message.

Regards
Steve
 
That is very true, unfortunately. However, I find we have lost a lot along the way and are quite poor in other, non-material respects.
 
Spoks said:
Olsen has a large collection of Canon gear and buys the heftiest 1Ds-cameras whenever they come out. In addition he has a large Leica gear collection, including a Noctilux he hardly use, several Hasselblads etc. He's got two homes, two cars, owns a large forest property in Sweden, and so on. He even has a lawyer write his tax statement. He had a Ferrari a few years back. He sold it because his wife couldnt stand all the attention it gathered. For him, money is no issue. That's the sort of customer that Leica is targeting.
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And none of that can buy talent which is what will create things that matter to people once you are gone, at least in the arts.

You can't keep clinging onto the hope tomorrow's technological feast when your creative health depends on living for today. And Leica could very well knock over the card house if they price them selves out of the general photo market with the M9.

But why care now? If the average person lives to be 75 or so, why spend even a moment in speculating something that is out of your control and does nothing to make you a better photographer or even a better person?

When I spend time with my colleagues and fellow professionals, this is not what we discuss, it is pointless.
 
KM-25 said:
And none of that can buy talent which is what will create things that matter to people once you are gone, at least in the arts.
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I think this is a very valid comment and to me it was one of the reasons to buy a Leica.

I am not interested to buy new gear every two years like many are doing. I do not need the latest gimmick which might be helpfull in some rare situations but which I cannot utilize as it is hidden somewhere in the subsubsubmenue. All these automations make it easy to achieve technically perfect images but most likely whip the creative process for most users.

The Leica M system is designed to set the essentials of the camera only and retrieves the process of taking the picture into the hands of the photographer. Before I owned the M8.2 i did not know anything about hyperfocal distance, Dof depending on distance, I did not play with motion blur etc. Finally I find taking pictures much more enjoying as the final result is not done by camera automatics. Of course you do not automatically become HCB junior by buying a Leica.

Regarding the M9 I am of the opinion that it does not need to be a full frame camera. If I would be a Leica manager I would lower the crop factor to 1.15 only which would make a 16mm lens a 18mm, 21mm to 24mm, 24mm to 28mm etc. This would sacrifice most users and would give some business potential for the future. Further I would try to get down to M6 size again by downsizing electronics which might be possible by utilizing S2 electronics. Another good feature would be if they could realize the sensor upgrade possibility that was envisaged for the M8.
Better high Iso performance seems obligatory as highly requested by the market although many have proven that they can expose correctly which leads to good results.

Just my 2ct.
Regards
Steve
 
Spoks said:
This is very well put. And believe me, I regard myself as both comfortable and well off economically. But still, $ 10,000 is beond my means to spend on a camera.
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Having $10K to spend on a camera doesn't mean you automatically consider it reasonable, nor does considering it unreasonable automatically mean you don't have the money. Although both of those false assumptions are often made by people on internet forums. I know plenty of very wealthy amateur photographers who would do a spit-take if someone suggested they spend more than $1000 on a camera body.
 
I can't believe that this entire thread as exploded based on the unsubstantiated rumour of ONE poster over in the Leica Forum. The guy posts like he has factual information about a forthcoming M9 and that he's put his deposit down to be 'first on the list' in Switzerland along with a friend ... yet he cannot provide any proof or verifiable information to back up his statements. None. Nada. I told him right off the bat that I'd eat my hat if he saw a FF M9, in his hands, before the end of the decade (pretty safe bet I think).

It's the internet folks - you don't check your common sense when you get in front of the keyboard and don't believe everything you read here .... even if you want it to be true.

Facts - remember those?
 
Hi!

Nice to hear info about next Leica.
I am also waiting for a M9 (or will it be called as M8.3). It will be my first Rangefinder camera. Hopefully Leica will get it ready soon.

Yours,
Harri
 
GrahamWelland said:
I can't believe that this entire thread as exploded based on the unsubstantiated rumour of ONE poster over in the Leica Forum. The guy posts like he has factual information about a forthcoming M9 and that he's put his deposit down to be 'first on the list' in Switzerland along with a friend ... yet he cannot provide any proof or verifiable information to back up his statements. None. Nada. I told him right off the bat that I'd eat my hat if he saw a FF M9, in his hands, before the end of the decade (pretty safe bet I think).

It's the internet folks - you don't check your common sense when you get in front of the keyboard and don't believe everything you read here .... even if you want it to be true.

Facts - remember those?
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Very true. And if you look at his "facts" it is just an extrapolation of a cut-down S2 sensor. And I know of no reputable Leica dealer in Europe that would demand "money down"for a place on a reservation list.
 
harri_tku said:
Hi!

Nice to hear info about next Leica.
I am also waiting for a M9 (or will it be called as M8.3). It will be my first Rangefinder camera. Hopefully Leica will get it ready soon.

Yours,
Harri
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Whilst you are waiting I'll have another 15.000 M8 photo's under my belt - and you will still be waiting.....
If it will be your first rangefinder it might be worth it to get a user M3 and a bit of film and start practising. It will save you an incredible amount of grief if and when you finally decide to shell out a considerable number of Euros on whatever DRF takes your fancy by then.
 
I agree, people are still getting on and shooting with M3s instead of handwringing about fullframe digital Ms. I don't think film will go away in the next 10 years while who knows whether Leica will still be able to service our M8s in ten years?
 
Double dare

Double dare

jvan01 said:
I agree, people are still getting on and shooting with M3s instead of handwringing about fullframe digital Ms. I don't think film will go away in the next 10 years while who knows whether Leica will still be able to service our M8s in ten years?
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Very true.



I'm sure we will have film in 2019, but will we have parts for the M8 if an M9 already is on the market by then? Only if Leica themselves are still around in this competitive market. It will always be easier and more economically feasable to fabricate film than to fabricate M8 spare parts. There will be a lot of entrepreneurs interested in the production of film, while only Leica itself would have spare parts for the M8 produced, no one else would have a business interest.


The OP mentions a full frame sensor, yet there's plenty posts on this forum by now that have convincingly outlined the problems with FF in a Leica M body, problems which, with the current state of technology cannot be overcome.

I double dare the OP to show some proof on a FF M9. I'll go out, buy a hat and eat it if he can produce any proof whatsoever. Pretty sure the silence will be deafening once again.
 
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